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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Tuesday, October 2, 2012


Contents


Scottish Government Question Time


Topical Questions


Alcohol Minimum Unit Price (European Commission)



1. To ask the Scottish Government what representations it has received from the European Commission regarding minimum unit pricing for alcohol. (S4T-00063)

The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing (Alex Neil)

The European Commission submitted a detailed opinion on minimum unit pricing for alcohol on 26 September. We are required to respond to the issues that are raised in the opinion, which are confidential, by 27 December. We are confident that we can demonstrate that minimum pricing is justified on the basis of public health and social grounds, and we will continue to press the case for it in the strongest possible terms.

Aileen McLeod

My understanding is that, as minimum unit pricing is a public health measure to tackle the real problem that we face in Scotland from binge drinking and alcohol misuse, it is consistent with European Union law, provided that the measure is proportionate. Does the cabinet secretary consider that to be the case?

Alex Neil

We have always been clear that, in order to comply with EU law, we need to demonstrate that minimum pricing is justified on public health grounds and that it is the most proportionate means by which to deliver our policy objectives.

I firmly believe that Scotland’s record of alcohol-related harm means that the introduction of minimum unit pricing is fully justified on public health grounds. Further, I am clear that minimum unit pricing is the least intrusive mechanism through which to reduce the disproportionate level of alcohol-related harm that is attributable to high-strength, low-cost alcoholic products.

For those reasons, the Scottish Government remains firmly of the view that minimum unit pricing complies with EU law.

Aileen McLeod

Does the cabinet secretary, like me, welcome the support that the Scottish Parliament’s groundbreaking alcohol and minimum pricing legislation has received from the EU-level charities, groups and organisations that are concerned about alcohol abuse, such as the European public health alliance? Will he therefore continue to press the case for minimum pricing because it is the right and responsible thing to do if we want to improve the public health of the people of this country and reduce the social harm that is caused by alcohol misuse?

Alex Neil

I whole-heartedly welcome the support from EU-level charities and organisations that work in this field. The cross-Europe support from public health professionals mirrors the support that we have received at home from our healthcare groups and professionals, our doctors, our nurses, our police and our public health experts—those who work daily with the terrible effects of alcohol misuse. That is one reason among many why we remain firm in the belief that a minimum price per unit of alcohol is the most effective and efficient way to tackle alcohol misuse in Scotland.

Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)

The action by the European Commission on minimum unit pricing and the challenge in the Court of Session notwithstanding, does the cabinet secretary recognise that there is much more that we can do to tackle alcohol abuse? On that basis, can I commend to him the member’s bill of my colleague, Richard Simpson, which contains a range of measures to tackle alcohol abuse, and ask him for an early meeting so that we can take that work forward together?

Alex Neil

The Scottish Government has always made it clear that minimum unit pricing is part of a wider package of dealing with this significant problem. We will, of course, consider any proposals that are put forward, including those of Professor Simpson. I am always glad to meet any member of this Parliament, from any side of the chamber, to discuss their ideas and proposals.

What discussions has the minister had with the United Kingdom Government and Lord Wallace of Tankerness in this regard?

Alex Neil

The clear indications from Lord Wallace and others are that we have the moral and active support of the UK Government in dealing with this matter at a European level. I would like to put on record my gratitude to the UK Government for that support—obviously, what happens north of the border will impact on its proposals for south of the border. Therefore, if we can speak with one voice and ensure that we win this battle in Europe, that will be good for people not only in Scotland but throughout the United Kingdom.


Proposed Smart Travel Card Scheme



2. To ask the Scottish Government when its proposed smart travel card scheme will be able to provide integrated public transport ticketing throughout Scotland.(S4T-00066)

The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities (Nicola Sturgeon)

Smart ticketing is not new to Scotland. Smart cards have been used to successfully deliver concessionary travel on buses for more than two years. There are more than 1.2 million card holders, and 146 million journeys are undertaken each year using the cards, so one in three of all bus journeys is already smart.

Delivering that scheme has allowed a lot of technical issues to be resolved and given the Scottish Government the knowledge to move on to the delivery of effective, integrated ticketing across Scotland. To that end, we now plan to establish and support a manageable number of pilot or demonstration projects with willing partners from the public sector and the transport-operating community. It is our intention that the pilots cover a number of different aspects of smart ticketing and that they are established in a number of different parts of the country. Most important, it is our expectation that all the projects will be capable of being expanded or replicated in other parts of Scotland.

There is therefore still a substantial amount of work to do, but our clear objective is that in due course and as quickly as is practically possible all journeys on Scotland’s bus, rail, ferry, subway and tram networks can be accessed using smart ticketing or payment in an integrated way.

Alex Johnstone

I thank the minister for that answer but, in the press releases that went out yesterday and in the comments that she made, a consistent comparison was made with the Oyster card system, raising expectations. It is my belief that the saltire card will effectively be a prepayment card and as such will not offer the same standard of service as the Oyster card. When do we expect the system to be of a comparable standard?

Nicola Sturgeon

The card is capable of operating in that way. I am sure that I do not need to tell Alex Johnstone and others in the chamber that there are, rightly or wrongly, appreciable differences between the organisation of the public transport networks in Scotland and London.

I guess that there are three stages in this process, the first of which is to get a card into existence; we have done that and I spoke about the scale of the card’s use in my earlier answer. Secondly, we must ensure the availability of smart ticket machines; they exist now in our buses and we have plans to roll them out to other modes of public transport. Thirdly and crucially—this will start through the pilot projects that I spoke about—we must ensure that we have a range of smart products for use with the smart cards, such as smart tickets or smart payment methods. That is the route to using the card in an integrated way.

I believe that we have a clear route map, if the member will pardon the pun, so it is important that we get on in the pilot projects to deliver. I assure the member and other members that I am keen to ensure that we make progress on the issue as quickly as possible.

Alex Johnstone

The minister has made it clear how valuable the system could be to visitors to Scotland. We are all of course aware that 2014 will see the Commonwealth games and the Ryder cup take place in Scotland, with huge numbers of visitors coming here. Can the minister offer me a guarantee that this system will be beyond the pilot stage, up and running, and tried and tested before those events take place?

Nicola Sturgeon

This is an important point: it is not necessarily the intention to have the system in use for the Commonwealth games. I have made clear my desire to see the system move forward as quickly as possible, but the member will understand that the Commonwealth games are approaching quickly and that it is important that we do not have something that is being tested in an event as important as the Commonwealth games.

The intention for the Commonwealth games is that a version of Strathclyde partnership for transport’s zone card product will be used. The games organisers, in discussion with Transport Scotland, are looking at how best to provide free travel for spectators travelling to games venues.

That does not take away from the real determination that there is, notwithstanding all the challenges around the issue, to make progress and get us to the point, which I believe we can reach, where we have genuinely smart, integrated public transport across Scotland. I am sure that that is an objective and ambition that members across the chamber will sign up to.

Clearly, the issue of timescale is important. When does the cabinet secretary expect the pilot projects will be evaluated?

Nicola Sturgeon

I will make more announcements in this regard over the next period, but my intention is to get the pilot projects up and running on a rolling basis as soon as possible. I would expect that to happen early in 2013, if not later this year.

We must ensure that we evaluate the projects on an on-going basis and use learning to accelerate progress. I am not going to put an end-point date on that right now, but I want to ensure that we make progress as quickly as possible in getting to the end-point. The member will appreciate that, as well as differences between Scotland and London in how our bus services are regulated, there are issues around franchise arrangements for rail and ferry services. Clearly, they are material to our ability as a Government to mandate public transport providers to deliver the projects.

I hope that all members get a clear sense of the determination that exists. I know that the Minister for Transport and Veteran Affairs is as determined as I am to ensure that we make the progress that everybody wants towards what I think is a worthy ambition.

Jim Hume (South Scotland) (LD)

I, too, welcome the Deputy First Minister’s announcement of a new travel smart card, although I regret that, at this stage, the scheme does not go as far as including various fare structures to make travelling more convenient and cheaper, as was called for. How will the Deputy First Minister ensure that users of the saltire card will enjoy fairer fares to combat the ever-increasing cost of public transport?

Nicola Sturgeon

I go back to my answer to Alex Johnstone. The point that bears repetition is that the card is already in existence—it has 1.2 million users, as it is currently used for the concessionary fare scheme across Scotland. Therefore, the card is not new.

We need to ensure that more public transport providers accept the card and have the card readers to accept it. That is the case with buses, and we need to ensure that it is the case as quickly as possible with other modes of transport.

The key point—this goes to the heart of Jim Hume’s question—is ensuring that we have the right products, such as integrated ticket products or ways of paying for tickets. Through such products, we not only get integration but start to look at some of the cost savings to passengers that I believe will be possible.

Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)

In making comparisons with London, the minister makes a good case for regulating the buses properly in Scotland so that we can have integrated ticketing and not just cashless payment. There is a risk that a mere cashless payment system that is based on the national entitlement card gives us the minimum level of functionality for the maximum impact on passengers’ privacy. Does the minister agree that a cashless payment card creates no rationale at all for collecting data about the journeys that people make? Will she have an immediate discussion with the Scottish Information Commissioner to ensure the most rigorous possible application of the Government’s privacy principles in the design of the scheme?

Nicola Sturgeon

Patrick Harvie is right to point to what is a real issue and one on which we need to strike the right balance. I am fully with him in relation to the protection of privacy. The other side—I say this simply to give the other side of the debate—is the argument that the ability of transport providers to look at people’s journey patterns allows those providers to better tailor their services.

There is a balance to be struck. We will obviously be mindful of any advice, guidance or stipulation of the Scottish Information Commissioner. As we progress with the scheme, I would be happy to speak to those who have an interest in the issue to ensure that we strike the right balance.

Will the cabinet secretary confirm whether flexible ticketing, particularly for students who travel, for example, between Ayrshire and Glasgow, will or could be part of the pilot or final scheme?

Nicola Sturgeon

The short answer to that is yes. The slightly longer answer is that the phase 1 demonstrator projects are aimed at testing several types of smart tickets. They will include, for example, school transport; transport and tickets to help young people to get back into employment; single-operator day returns or weekly, monthly or annual tickets; multi-operator versions of the same things; and rail season tickets. In saying yes to John Scott, I hope that I am giving him the sense that, through the demonstrator projects, we are looking to test a number of uses of the scheme to inform our approach.