Official Report 169KB pdf
Item 2 is evidence on the Scottish Government's race equality statement. The committee took evidence on the statement from a range of witnesses at its previous meeting. It is my pleasure to welcome Alex Neil, the Minister for Housing and Communities, who is appearing before the committee for the first time since his recent appointment. I also welcome the Scottish Government officials who are accompanying the minister: Lesley Irving, team leader in the equality unit; and Kelly Abel, policy officer with the equality unit.
Thank you, convener. I, too, express my best wishes to Elaine Smith and hope that she has a speedy recovery. She has a tremendous reputation within the Parliament and outside it for her commitment to equal opportunities, and I am sure that Marlyn Glen is a worthy successor.
Thank you for that very comprehensive opening statement, which has addressed many of the common themes that emerged in our round-table discussion two weeks ago.
As far as integration and assimilation are concerned, it is very important that we talk about integration into our community. Of course, that does not mean that we are seeking in any way to subdue the identity of any ethnic minority group. We want people to be able to be faithful to their community's traditions while, at the same time, feeling 100 per cent part of Scotland's wider community. Achieving that objective in our day-to-day lives is probably the biggest challenge of the lot.
How would you face up to the challenges in the example that you have just given?
Although a range of issues has to be considered, there are particular challenges in education and housing. If we leave ethnicity to one side, the fact is that, irrespective of its profile, an influx of people into a particular area puts pressure on local health, education and housing services. With regard to housing, which is part of my responsibilities, we recognise the challenges that Govanhill Housing Association and Glasgow City Council face in ensuring that there is enough good-quality housing to meet the influx of people into that part of the city. Both in the affordable housing investment allocations that we announced last week and in the internal allocation of that money, for which Glasgow City Council is responsible, we and the council want to reflect the housing challenges that are faced by that community.
Does meeting that challenge involve more consultation and discussion with residents to smooth over any difficulties?
Absolutely. In fact, yesterday in Barrhead, I had the pleasure of launching with Councillor Harry McGuigan from COSLA the community empowerment action plan. I have to say that there was a great deal of interest in the launch, at which the ethnic minority communities were represented.
I think that examples always help to illustrate how specific challenges are being met.
As you will be aware, the United Kingdom is primarily responsible for introducing, implementing and monitoring race equality legislation. The Scottish Government can intervene only in devolved areas, but we work very closely with the UK Government's main agency for implementing such legislation, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, to address any general or specific issues that arise.
I specifically mentioned education, which is a devolved matter, and attitudes to women that may be contrary to those that are promoted by our laws. Those are issues for which the Parliament has responsibility. Do you have anything to add on those matters?
The Scottish Government's position is very clear on forced marriages and issues of that sort. I do not think that we differ from our predecessors in our policies on those issues. We are working closely with the Westminster Government on the issue of women with no access to the public purse. We think that there are not a great number of such women in Scotland—we estimate that there are fewer than 50. Nevertheless, not having access to the public purse is a major problem for those 50 women. We are working closely with our colleagues south of the border to address that issue, as the primary policy responsibility for it rests with the UK Government—in particular, with the Home Office.
The specific question that I had in mind in relation to education was faith schools, in which there might be teaching that could be seen not to fit in with British society.
We talk to the leadership of the Muslim community and other ethnic minorities in Scotland and, as you know, there has been discussion of the possibility of having a dedicated school in Glasgow. The First Minister has said that the Scottish Government would be supportive of that idea. To the best of my knowledge, no progress has been made on that proposal in recent times, but that is nevertheless an indication of our approach.
A common theme in our round-table discussion was the need for monitoring and the lack of detail and specifics. The statement sets out the Scottish Government's aspirations. Can you give us a bit more detail about how those aspirations will be realised and the corresponding timescales?
Let us consider the example of Gypsies/Travellers. As I said in my opening remarks, they are one of our priority areas for action. We are working with the Gypsy/Traveller community and leadership, local authorities and others. Progress has been made on the establishment of a transit site in South Ayrshire in close co-operation with the council. We are also making progress with a number of local authorities on the management of campsites. We are actively in discussions with 24 of the 32 local authorities about the management of campsites and, as I have mentioned, we have allocated £5 million over a four-year period to the specific issues relating to Gypsies/Travellers. Those are practical examples of how we are trying to address the issues.
That would be very helpful. The committee would welcome that, as that issue was quite a feature of the round-table discussion, as you will know.
That is work in progress. Clearly, that is not an easy outcome to measure. We carry out survey work from time to time, but I do not think that any such work has been carried out recently. We will, however, plan some survey work to gauge attitudes. Some of the on-going survey work that is done by the UK Government and the Office for National Statistics informs us, from time to time, about some of the issues.
Again, that would be very welcome.
Good morning. At the round-table discussion, which was my first session with the committee, I picked up a sense of frustration among some of the communities at the speed at which progress is being made. The answers that you have given are much appreciated and have addressed a number of the issues that came up. However, some of the representatives felt that we need action now and some kind of mechanism to address specific issues without having to wait for the statement or the strategies that may follow it at a later stage.
I have made it clear that I am determined to ensure that, when a Government policy is not properly implemented, we will intervene to ensure that it is properly implemented. To some extent, I share the frustration that you describe. Progress never seems to be being made fast enough in such areas, and the system depends on the way in which people apply the rules and regulations—in this case, in relation to legal aid.
That is encouraging. Participants in the round-table discussion wanted a forum at which they could not only present problems as they arose but share the experience of whether issues were being resolved quickly enough for communities. What you say is welcome.
If the committee would like to make suggestions or recommendations in that respect, we will take them seriously.
The minister said—I am paraphrasing—that policy positions on the subject are the same as those at Westminster. I am interested to know whether that means that the Scottish Government intends to introduce legislation on forced marriages, as Westminster has.
My colleague Kenny MacAskill takes the lead on the discussions that are taking place on legislative proposals. We can furnish the committee with the up-to-date position on the discussions between Westminster and Holyrood.
My questions are about the section of the statement on the evidence base. You have said that you will furnish us with updated information, which might help not just the committee but the witnesses who participated in the round-table session. Scrutinising policy and monitoring progress are difficult when hard facts are not available for comparison. To set the context, we might have expected the statement to contain more examples of race inequality, such as statistics on instances of overt racism like racially motivated offences. Why were such examples left out?
We gave examples but did not cover every statistic. We are glad to furnish the committee with any statistic that is not available in the statement or in subsequent publications. In any update on the statement, we will take into account the committee's recommendations on additional information that needs to be included. I was not the minister when the statement was produced, so I might not know the precise reason why any particular statistic was not included. If the committee makes clear the statistics that it believes should be included in the race equality statement or other statements, I will do everything that I can to accommodate its wishes.
That would help, because that would enable us to measure whether progress was being made.
Yes—absolutely.
In your introduction, you mentioned the employment of minority ethnic women. The statement shows that, in educational attainment, females from minority ethnic groups perform better than females from white ethnic groups. Will you expand on your plans to use that information?
I make a distinction between educational attainment and employment. To be frank, we need to ensure that the employment opportunities for ethnic minority women are properly followed through. The last research that I saw showed that although ethnic minority women do exceptionally well in educational attainment, that is not reflected as well as it should be in employment opportunities. We want to pursue that. It is obvious that, in a recession, employment opportunities for everybody are a difficult policy matter. However, the situation is not right. Given the clear evidence of how well ethnic minority women perform in educational attainment, to achieve equality we need to reflect that in employment opportunities, not just in terms of getting employment but in terms of the quality of employment that those women obtain. I want to pursue that policy issue.
I am interested in the details of that work and in being updated on how you pursue it. The aspiration is good, but how will it be delivered?
We are tackling the fact that many statistics are not held or collected centrally, which means that it is sometimes more difficult to inform policy, particularly evidence-based policy. It is clear that, in progressing such issues, we want to ensure that any policy decisions are evidence based. We are considering where we are short of the evidence that we need to decide how best to tackle problems. To be honest, it is difficult to assemble information on the subject systematically, but we want to address that.
You are trying to improve data on ethnic minorities; I understand the problems. Are racial differences always likely to be the result of racism or discrimination? Do broad comparisons between white ethnic groups and minority ethnic groups risk masking significant differences within and between minority ethnic groups?
I will finish off my point about data. We have suggested changes to the 2011 census questions to capture some information about, for example, Gypsies/Travellers. The census is the responsibility not of us, but of the Office for National Statistics.
The Office for National Statistics is responsible for the census in England and Wales, but the General Register Office for Scotland is responsible for the census in Scotland. We have worked closely with GROS colleagues to develop a new and modernised ethnicity classification for Scotland, elements of which will differ from that which the ONS will use in its census.
I thank Lesley Irving for correcting me with the name of the agency in Scotland.
Do Scottish Government departments monitor the percentages of all their employees and of their women employees who are from ethnic minority backgrounds? Departments could influence and set a considerable example for broader Scottish society. I do not know whether there are figures for the number of such employees in the Scottish Government. If there are, are there plans to increase the percentage, if it is not reasonable?
We have targets for women and ethnic minorities. We will double check the figures, but I think that our target for ethnic minorities is in the order of 2.5 per cent.
That is the target going forward; the current target is 1.7 per cent.
We are probably about 60 per cent of the way towards reaching the eventual target. We are considering how we can improve the situation, because it is clear that significant improvement is needed.
PATH Scotland has been successful in bringing ethnic minority people—in particular young people—into training and employment with housing associations. It is not the only organisation that is doing such work. Those organisations might be able to help to bring more people from ethnic minorities into the Scottish Government. Would the Government be interested in using such organisations instead of reinventing the wheel?
We absolutely would. Every source of help in achieving the target is welcome. You are right to say that there has been great success in getting ethnic minority young people involved in housing associations—of course, those figures do not count as Government figures.
Employment is important. In your statement you flagged up a measure that was proposed by the strategic group on ethnic minorities in the labour market. You might have covered this in your introductory remarks, but what has happened to the rest of the group's recommendations? Are they still on the table?
We hope to take them all forward. They are certainly not being frozen and they have not been rejected; we are working on them all, but they all require more work.
That is helpful.
If individual authorities are not implementing the duty as well as they could and should be doing, we want to work with them to try to ensure that they do better.
Concern was also expressed about community planning partnerships. It is important that you have acknowledged your concern, because, given what you said, there might be concern that the absence of detailed action is an effect of the concordat climate. The Government's equality unit has shown great leadership, so you will understand that ethnic minority communities might be concerned that progress will slow down rather than speed up if more is left to local authorities and community planning partnerships.
I mentioned that I regularly meet COSLA. I intend to put the issue on the agenda, to be discussed soon.
In general, we are positive about the statement, but we must highlight concerns that were flagged up during our evidence-taking meeting—you probably read the Official Report of the meeting. The witness from BEMIS expressed concern about the absence of positive action measures and about the failure to address institutional racism. Will you comment on those two issues? Is action being taken on them that is not specifically mentioned in the statement?
There are areas in which positive action is required to achieve the ambitious outcomes targets that we have set ourselves, but we need to be precise about where to target positive action, rather than take a blanket approach. I used to work in the States, where I employed a lot of people in a large corporation. We had to meet positive discrimination targets. Of course, that was way back in the 1980s and the legislation was subsequently changed, because the issue is not just the principle of positive action but how we do it—if it is not done properly, it can be counterproductive in the long run. It is important to ensure that positive action is taken to resolve a particular challenge rather than as a blanket approach.
I should stress that Rami Ousta supported positive action but not positive discrimination.
Absolutely, but positive discrimination was part of a wider positive action agenda—in those days, in America.
You have put that in context.
Audit Scotland referred to the performance of local authorities, suggesting in a recent paper on the race equality duty that one outcome for people from minority ethnic communities should be that
There are two levels. First, there is the initial contact with council officials. Council tax offices are a good example to consider, because many people have contact with them. In the initial contact, it is important that the person behind the counter acts appropriately and treats the person with respect, offering the same level of support and service that would be offered to anyone who was not a member of an ethnic minority community. Secondly, however, it frequently happens that a person from an ethnic minority community has particular requirements. For example, their knowledge and understanding of English might mean that it is difficult for the council official to understand and communicate properly with them. That is where support services come in. If issues arise that the front-end official cannot deal with, the official must be able to access the appropriate quality of professional support for different ethnic minority groups.
Earlier, the minister made points about planning. I plead for a similar approach to be taken to community health partnerships. Many issues arise relating to people's ethnic origin and expectations of services. Health boards have to be aware of that.
My colleague Nicola Sturgeon, who is the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing, is very well aware of such issues and is addressing a number of them as part of her portfolio.
I will follow on from Hugh O'Donnell's question. The English language can be a knotty problem—spelled with a "k". It is a complex language for people to learn. The UK Government has emphasised how important it is that migrants learn English, but it wants to use more of the stick than the carrot. It has produced guidance for local authorities that suggests that translation be provided only where it is necessary and can act as a stepping stone to speaking English. I am not absolutely certain how such guidance can be implemented. However, will the Scottish Government emphasise the same point? If so, what implications will that have for the race equality duty of Scottish public bodies?
The Scottish Government is responsible for devolved services, so our approach is different from that of the UK Government. Our emphasis is very much on encouraging people and ensuring that they receive the level of language services that they require. The language could be used for a multitude of purposes—for educational purposes, for the purpose of meeting the UK Government's requirement that people become articulate in English or for many other purposes, depending on people's objectives. Our emphasis is on providing services and support, so that people who want to learn English or who want to take a more advanced course in English can access the appropriate course.
I have been interested for a long time in how the issue is approached in Quebec, where great emphasis is placed on migrants being able to speak both French and English, as well as their own language. The reason for that emphasis is not only so that people who come into the country can access services—although I agree that that is hugely important—but so that they can be more employable and can be economically active, which obviously is good for the individuals as well as good for the country. However, for that to happen here, a really good English teaching service would be required. What do you think of the Quebec approach?
I agree with it, in general. Support services for teaching people English must be readily available. Bill Kidd questioned the UK Government's reason for wanting people to learn English, and Marlyn Glen's point is important. Often, people come to this country because they want to improve their economic wellbeing, and the ability to speak English will improve their chances of getting a good job.
In places such as Inverness, there is also an impact on schools when children come in who do not speak English. Resources will be necessary, but where will they come from?
Having chaired the then Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, I happen to know that the college sector in particular in Inverness has been conscious of the need to provide such services and has been funded to do so by the Scottish Further and Higher Education Funding Council. Such funding is primarily an issue for Fiona Hyslop's department rather than mine, but we all work to ensure that such services are available where necessary in health, housing, education and employment. My experience as convener of that committee was that, particularly for the adult population from the migrant community, Scotland's colleges did—and still do—a wonderful job in teaching English as well as other languages.
On that point, you mentioned that the council tax office might be people's first contact with a local authority. If people cannot speak English and have no need to do so for employment purposes, where does the balance lie between achieving your stated goal of integration and providing the required translation services, which obviously involve a cost to local authorities? Where does the balance lie and how is that monitored?
People who come here and do not learn English should be encouraged to do so because that will make life much easier for them and, for very practical reasons, will improve their life chances and those of their family. However, we cannot go to the stage of telling those who refuse to learn English that they will be banned from receiving certain services or anything like that. Apart from anything else, that would probably be illegal and would certainly be immoral. Generally, most people are sensible about the issue. My friends from the migrant community have all been anxious not only to learn English but, in some cases, to take advanced English. Indeed, some of them have a much better understanding of the language and can articulate it much better than someone like me. In my experience, there are few cases in which people absolutely refuse to learn the English language. The vast majority want to learn English because it makes life easier for them.
To encourage people to learn English, will the Scottish Government monitor the use of translation services in local government and other public bodies?
Monitor is a very strong word. We are certainly aware of the services that are available. Where there are issues, we try to identify them with our partners in local government. If they need our help to address them, we will provide that assistance.
The need for statistics and hard facts to find out the extent of the problem was another theme that came through in our round-table discussion. I just wanted to pin you down a little bit more on how the encouragement that you mentioned would come.
If the committee feels that further statistical collation is needed, we will certainly consider that. I am not sure—I would need to be convinced of this—that the problem is significant enough to invest large amounts in statistical collation. However, if the committee finds evidence otherwise, we will obviously listen to what the committee says.
The question concerns me slightly. I am a bit worried that people might conclude that anyone who speaks English does not need a translator. In my experience, as a rather poor Castilian speaker when travelling in South America, people frequently assume that I speak the language much better than I do and suppose that I have understood much more than I have. Often, I miss some slight subtleties. Even someone who speaks English quite well can still need a translator, particularly for dealing with any complexity that might arise with the council.
Absolutely. Sometimes, if one comes across a difficult council officer who might not be as user friendly as they should be, one can understand why people feel that they are not getting the level of service to which they are entitled even though, in their view, they have articulated very well the need for that service.
You spoke quite a lot about Gypsy Travellers, on whom we have further questions.
I note from your reply to Patrick Harvie's parliamentary question S3O-6274 that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing wrote to the UK Government on 26 June 2007 and that you still await a reply. What was that contact about? Did it include a request for consideration to be given to formal legal recognition of Gypsy Travellers and to their being given ethnic minority status? If you have still not received a reply, will you make further contact and encourage one?
As far as the Scottish Government is concerned, Gypsies/Travellers are an ethnic minority and should be treated and recognised as such. That is our view; I think that my predecessor made that absolutely clear, too. So far, we have not had a substantive response of any significance from the UK Government. As the new minister, I want to take up the matter with it again and see whether we can make some progress.
I am delighted to hear that. You said that some progress has been made in South Ayrshire where the situation is under active discussion, and you mentioned discussions with 24 local authorities. It is clear that there has been some progress on the provision of Gypsy Traveller sites. The previous Equal Opportunities Committee supported the call for a national review of the current and future accommodation needs of Gypsy Travellers. Has such a review been carried out?
We have not done a national review, but if we do not make enough progress, we will look at the situation. At present, we prefer to conduct reviews locally because we can address the issues primarily by working through the local authorities. If we feel that there is a need for a national review, we will keep an open mind on the situation. At the moment, we are trying the local method of working through the issue and, to be fair, we are making progress in several areas.
You mentioned 24 local authorities; that is not all of them—
There are eight more.
That is what I thought. Are eight missing because you think that they have entirely adequate provision, or are there other reasons why they are not taking part in the discussions?
Eight authorities do not have any sites, and we are working with them where we think that there might be a demand for sites.
As you are aware, given that you alluded to it earlier, the unemployment rate among Gypsy Travellers is very high. What measures are proposed to address that?
Often, it is about making people employment ready. That is where our interventions can have the greatest impact and it is why we have given high priority to education. We believe that one reason, although it is not the only one, why the employment level among Gypsies/Travellers is lower and the unemployment level is higher is their level of educational attainment. By their very nature, such people are travelling around. We have therefore made education a high priority, and one of the drivers for that is to make Gypsies/Travellers more employment ready.
When you talk about education, are you talking about all age groups or specifically about Gypsy Travellers who fall within the school age group?
I am talking primarily about the school age group, but adult education through colleges and other providers is also important. We are trying to ensure that education happens across the board. Obviously, many people in the Gypsy/Traveller community who are looking for employment are not of primary or secondary school age but are much older. We want to ensure, particularly through educational support, that they become employment ready, so that when they go to an interview, they stand as good a chance as anyone else, ideally, of getting the job.
You mentioned the legal system and the concerns about legal aid. At our meeting on 10 March, a Gypsy Traveller representative told us that their community finds it difficult to get legal representation. If I remember correctly, the example that she gave involved family law. A lawyer had said, "I don't deal with Gypsy Traveller issues because I don't understand them", in spite of the fact that the matter was a straightforward issue of family law. The individual therefore had difficulty getting representation.
I will do two things. First, I will ask officials to investigate the particular case that was highlighted to the committee to find out what the problem was and to determine whether we can assist in any way. Secondly, we will take up the general issue with the Gypsy/Traveller community to find out whether the case reflects a general problem or whether it is a one-off.
I welcome that assurance, minister. Thank you.
The statement appears, in various places, to merge the issues of faith and race. That can be quite difficult, because within race we also have ethnicity. What is the largest minority ethnic group in Scotland?
I think it would be English-born people, under our definition.
My understanding was that it was actually the ethnic Irish, but that is a moot point, I suppose.
If we picked every group as a priority, that would mean, by definition, that we did not have a priority. We decided to pick the Muslim group as a priority because of the difficulties that have occurred and our concerns about Islamophobia and other issues that affect that group. As we know from the problems that we have had in the past few years, there are particular issues, and the group has been subject to criticism—and unfair treatment, in some quarters—that other groups have not experienced. We therefore regard good relations with the Muslim community as a high priority and of prime importance.
Have you had any representations from any elements of secular society regarding the support that the Government, and admittedly the previous Administration, has provided to interfaith groups?
I have not had such representations as a minister. I cannot answer for my predecessor offhand, but I am sure that we can dig out that information for you and give you a specific reply.
A member of the Humanist Society of Scotland is involved in our working group on faith and belief relations. We wanted to include secular groups in that group, because it goes across society and does not cover just interfaith groups.
I will ask my colleague Fergus Ewing whether he has received any representations. As you know, he was the minister who handled the Scottish Interfaith Council issue. If representations have been made recently, I suspect that they may have gone to Fergus Ewing, rather than to me.
The Government justifiably prioritises Muslim groups. Have you a second priority for ethnic or religious groups in which you will seek to develop capacity?
I do not have a second priority at the moment—the work is more across the board. We decided to make the Muslim group a priority, for the reasons that I gave you.
The statement refers to the development of identity as a means of tackling potential violent extremist threats in Scotland and in Scottish society. Can you say anything beyond what is in the statement about what the Government is doing in that regard ? Can we draw on any lessons learned from our UK colleagues down south?
That is quite a topical question, given the UK Government's announcement this morning. Clearly, we are working with the UK Government on fighting off and preventing potential attacks from violent extremist groups or any kind of terrorist attack. The Glasgow airport attack is still fresh enough in everybody's mind for the importance of that effort to be obvious.
I will focus on demographic change. The statement says, first:
I do not think that we have an optimum population target. I read yesterday that Jonathan Porrit thinks that the whole of the UK can sustain a population of only 30 million. The latest projection for the UK is that our population could go up as high as 70 million to 75 million in the next 20 to 30 years.
In general, then, you would encourage migration in the interests not only of keeping the population steady, but increasing it.
There are many reasons for encouraging migration. For example, we believe that having more migration into Scotland would help Scotland to realise its full potential. We believe that our society is enriched by the more diverse community that immigration brings about. Further, when people come to this country, they bring with them links to their home countries; that is beneficial culturally, technologically, economically and in a range of other ways.
The Scottish Government's themes in the statement include references to refugees and asylum seekers. One theme talks of addressing the barriers that prevent
In many respects, ensuring that migrant and ethnic minority communities can play their full part in all aspects of Scottish society is more of a practical, day-to-day issue than a legislative issue. That is why we are using the funding that is available to us—it is not as great as we would like it to be, given the background of recession, credit crunch and the threat of a squeeze on public spending from next year—to support certain projects.
That is good to know. At the moment, Scotland's ethnic minority population is relatively small compared with that of England. However, the Scottish Government is interested in increasing the rate of inward migration, to benefit Scottish society and the Scottish economy. With increased integration and larger numbers of migrants, are you confident that public attitudes to groups coming into the country will be positive, especially during a time of recession?
I am confident that we are doing everything that we can to ensure that there is a positive approach to the policy. It is a fact of life that, if anything, the number of people from the minorities to which you refer who have come here has decreased. There is clear evidence that the recession here, the expansion in the Polish economy and, in particular, the exchange rate between the pound and the Polish currency have encouraged a large number of Poles to go back to Poland. At the moment, the recession is reducing the number of migrant workers who are coming to or even staying in Scotland, which is the opposite of what we are trying to achieve. To be honest, for the next year, year and a half or two years, that is more likely to be the problem than a large influx of migrant workers or ethnic minority communities creating an attitude problem in the population here.
Given that we are losing so many people as a result of the recession, are the migration targets likely to be extended for the foreseeable future?
The impact of the recession will not be clear quantitatively until after the event, because the figures that are available tend to be published on an historical rather than a real-time basis. However, so far it appears that the recession has led to some economic migrants from eastern European Union countries returning to their home countries, rather than a larger number coming here. That was the case even before the recession, because of the impact of changes in exchange rates.
I refer you to question S3W-11547, by the late Bashir Ahmad.
Can you tell me what the question was?
No—you tell me the answer first.
On forced marriages, as I said earlier, we are talking to people at Westminster and we also have a consultation going on in Scotland. If it is okay with you, I would prefer to wait until we see the results of that consultation before making any specific commitments.
We are both skirting round this area, and perhaps it would be better if your officials had a chance to look at the answer to which I have referred. That would give you some context.
Yes.
My final question is also partly related to the law. Does the Scottish Government see a place for Sharia law in its approach to race equality and in the Scottish judicial system?
That is a very interesting question, and it is one with which we are engaged at the moment. It is primarily a question for my colleagues in the justice function, rather than for my function. It is interesting: I had a meeting the other day, and one of the areas of housing policy that I am considering is other ways of funding new housing supply. Under Islamic Sharia law, people are not allowed to earn interest. Housing finance is therefore engineered in such a way as to generate income purely from rental, rather than interest. That is a very good example of where we might learn from other financial practices, which could be applied in how we fund some aspects of housing policy.
I wish to press you on the gender imbalance that could flow from that.
What is the question, convener?
Hugh O'Donnell asked about Sharia law. The question is about incorporating Sharia law, or accepting what place it could have in Scotland, and the gender implications of that.
I do not have a definitive response to that question. May I take time to contemplate a reply and come back to you on it?
That is your prerogative, minister.
You are illustrating the importance of equalities across portfolios, minister. I wish to pass on a further question—it is a health question from the Glasgow Anti Racist Alliance. The alliance wishes an explanation on why there is no full patient ethnicity monitoring in NHS Scotland, which it has been urging.
I am sure that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing is dealing with that specific issue. I will ask her whether she can give you a detailed response. That is not specifically in my portfolio.
Thank you, minister, for your full and detailed responses and for your offer to provide additional information, as well as taking cognisance of the committee's view on the various aspects of the race equality statement that we have examined. I thank everyone for their attendance.
Thank you. We will come back to you with that follow-up information as quickly as we possibly can.
That is very much appreciated.
Meeting continued in private until 12:51.
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