Education, Culture and Sport Committee,

Meeting date: Tuesday, May 21, 2002

Official Report 83KB pdf

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School Meals (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

We return to the School Meals (Scotland) Bill, and to a discussion of general issues. We will move into private session to discuss the draft report that we have received.

It would be worth asking the Executive to give us more information on certain aspects of the proposals, such as the cost of providing free school milk to different sectors of the school population and in different quantities. A general statistical account of how much that would cost would be helpful in considering the bill. In addition, the issue of capital expenditure was raised. Only one council gave us an estimate of how much it would cost it to make the required capital adjustments to dining hall facilities and so on. Councils could be invited to give us further estimates.

I have a number of points to raise, some of which are small and some of which seek clarification, but they are worth drawing out. Some of the papers that we have received refer to nutritional guidelines. I am conscious that we have received written evidence on food-based groups. Could the nutrition adviser indicate what is wrong with using food-based groups, so that our consideration is full?

I would like to receive more information on the provision of free milk. Is there evidence on the age range at which free milk should be provided to avoid dental caries? I am sure that free milk would have a different impact on 16, 17 and 18-year-olds than it would on children aged up to 5, or older.

We talk often about Sweden and Finland, which are referred to in the adviser's paper. Are we talking about free school meal provision in those countries in primary and secondary schools or just in one sector? Clearly, that will have implications when we consider how to move forward.

The bill's promoters say that the bill is a health improvement measure as well as an anti-poverty measure, but there is a debate about the statistics. We should ask the Executive for precise figures on the number of children who live in poverty and the number who are entitled to free school meals, and information on why, in the Executive's view, they are not claiming their free school meals. We should also ask for information on other benefits, such as the working families tax credit, so that we have a comprehensive view of the measures that are in place and where the cut-off points are.

At our last meeting, we asked the bill's promoters for evidence of their cost-benefit analysis, because they made claims about benefits that would accrue from the bill. I accept that it will be enormously difficult to quantify the benefits, but I ask the clerks whether we have received any evidence, because it is important that in giving the bill adequate consideration we take those points on board.

Last, I am conscious that we have a letter from one of the bill's promoters. Will you deal with that later, convener?

Yes. Have we received any information on cost-benefit analyses?

No.

The provision of free or subsidised water, or even water that is sold at a lower price that that at which it is available commercially, but which produces funds for schools, is a concern of mine. I spent the morning at Dalziel High School in Motherwell, where they sell bottled water that has the school's name on it. I had intended to bring a bottle to the meeting, but I can show it to members later if they like. That water raises money for school funds, and means that water is freely available in the school. Coke is available, but it is kept next to the radiator, while the water is kept in a fridge. That is a pretty neat way of ensuring that there is good uptake. The water sells like hot cakes, if that is not the wrong thing to say.

I would like more information on how many authorities provide free water—as in the Highlands—and on how many provide water that is subsidised or for sale. I would also like information on whether that has been successful, and whether it is reckoned to be useful. It would be helpful to ask the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities for that information.

On uptake initiatives, we do not, as Jackie Baillie said, have enough information on children who are entitled to free school meals but who do not take them. Are studies available from south of the border on that? There is experience south of the border of statutory nutritional standards. It would be useful to have more information on that.

My colleague Irene McGugan will want to talk about fruit and berries, but we have heard little about initiatives to provide children with free fruit and berries, the provision of which has been highly successful elsewhere. I lay down a strong marker on behalf of the SNP that we are interested in that.

We should refer to the letter that Tommy Sheridan sent to the convener—which each of us received—which says that he does not think that we have taken enough evidence. I am sure that we will want to discuss that. We need certain information. I am sorry that I was not at the committee's meeting last week, but from what I have read of the meeting, some of those who gave evidence were not well treated by the promoters of the bill; in fact, some of them were disgracefully treated by the bill's promoters. I would be reluctant to put anybody else through that.

Irene, do you want to talk about fruit and berries or other things?

Not really, because fruit and berries have been flagged up enough, and we can deal with them later. I remind the committee that the expert panel on nutrition and school meals will report at the end of the month. We must bear in mind that time scale when we consider our own time scale, so that we have an opportunity to take on board the information and recommendations from the expert panel, and the extent to which that will or will not impact on our consideration of the bill.

Absolutely. It has been suggested that we ask the Executive and COSLA for a number of pieces of information and costings, such as information on uptake and how widely free water is available in schools. Letters requesting that information should be sent urgently, because we need the information long before we sit down to make our final decisions on 6 June. I am concerned about our time scale, so those letters must be sent tomorrow to allow us to receive the information in time, which we are right to request of the Executive. Irene McGugan is right that we need information on nutritional standards, so that we can consider that issue in deciding on our recommendations on the bill.

I have one other point. Could the Executive give us information on phase costing, for instance for the first three years in primary schools? I am seeking variations on the total cost, because there are alternatives that have not yet been adequately explored.

Should we ask the Executive for that information?

Members indicated agreement.

If there are no other points, we will move into private session.

Meeting continued in private until 15:31.