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Item 2 is consideration of evidence at stage 1 of the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill. Our kick-off witness is Pam Talbot, who is Clì Gàidhlig's convener. You will give an introduction, after which we will ask questions. You sit in rather solitary splendour at the top of the table, but you are welcome to the committee and we look forward to hearing what you have to say.
Madainn mhath. Mar a thuirt an neach-gairm, tha mise nam chathraiche bòrd Chlì Gàidhlig, a tha na bhuidheann cothrom agus adhartachadh na Gàidhlig—[Briseadh a-steach.]
Good morning. As the convener said, I am the chairperson of Clì Gàidhlig's management board. The group gives access to Gaelic and I am here—[Interruption.]
Can I stop you? We are not hearing anything through the headphones. Our technical incompetence, rather than anything else, appears to be the problem. I am sorry about that. Everybody's headphones are now turned on, so I ask you to start again.
Madainn mhath a-rithist, a h-uile duine. Is mise cathraiche bòrd Chlì Gàidhlig. Is e buidheann cothrom agus adhartachadh na Gàidhlig a tha ann an Clì Gàidhlig. Tha sinn taingeil airson a' chothruim fianais a thoirt seachad air Bile na Gàidhlig (Alba).
Good morning again, everybody. As the convener said, I am the chairperson of Clì Gàidhlig's management board. The group gives access to Gaelic and promotes the language. Clì Gàidhlig is thankful for the opportunity to give evidence to the committee.
The committee's job is to establish whether it agrees with the general principles of the bill and to report to the Parliament on that, although obviously a number of subsidiary issues will arise. Is your organisation happy with the overall planning framework in the bill, which involves the Gaelic board, the language plan and an obligation on public authorities to feed into that?
Tha Clì toilichte san fharsaingeachd, ach tha sinn beagan mì-thoilichte mu dheidhinn, is dòcha, facal no dhà, mar an dòigh anns an do chleachdadh am facal "cultar" an àite "cànan". Tha an dòigh anns a bheil cultar ainmichte anns a' bhile beagan farsaing, oir chan eil e a' sònrachadh a' chànain fhèin. Sin beachd a' bhùird co-dhiù.
Clì Gàidhlig is happy in general with that, but it is a bit displeased about the words that are used. The bill mentions language rather than culture, but we are considering ways in which culture can be named or specified in the bill as well.
What do you mean when you ask for a more specific reference to culture?
Chan e am facal "cultar" fhèin; is e gu bheil sinn a' coimhead airson facal a thaobh cànan. Tha sinn beagan draghail mu dheidhinn an dòigh anns a bheil am bile ag ràdh gum bi an Riaghaltas a' cur taic ri cultar san fharsaingeachd. A bheil sin a' ciallachadh gu bheil e a' coimhead air stuth nan ealan, a' toirt a-staigh òrain agus bàrdachd agus stuth mar sin, an àite a bhith a' coimhead air dòighean anns a bheilear a' brosnachadh a' chànain gu bhith ga chleachdadh gu làitheil anns gach suidheachadh? Sin am beachd aig Clì. Chan eil sinn cinnteach mun dòigh anns an cuirear molaidhean an Riaghaltais an gnìomh. Mar eisimpleir, a bheil iad ann airson a bhith a' cur taic ri foghlam anns na sgoiltean? Am bi cothrom ann airson a h-uile duine a bhith ag ionnsachadh Gàidhlig mar chòir reachdail an àite a bhith dìreach a' strì airson ghoireasan mar seo?
The issue is not just the word "culture", but its meaning in respect of language. We are a bit worried about how the bill says that the Executive supports culture in general. Does that mean that it is looking at the arts or matters that involve language and poetry, instead of ways in which the language can be developed to be used in daily situations? That is what Clì is examining. Clì is not sure how the Executive's recommendations will be put into action. Are they intended to support education in schools, or will everybody have an opportunity to learn Gaelic as a valid right, as I said? Clì strives for such facilities.
Are the two matters necessarily contradictory? I presume that the ability to learn, enjoy and use Gaelic is much enhanced if it can be taken in its cultural context.
Chan eil sinn an aghaidh context mar sin idir. Tha Clì dìreach beagan draghail gun cuirear cudthrom dìreach air rudan cultarach an àite a bhith a' dèanamh cinnteach gum bi cothroman ann airson an cànan fhèin ionnsachadh. Am bi fianais ann gu bheil an cànan freagarrach airson a h-uile suidheachadh ann am beatha làitheil, mar ann an àiteachan poblach agus ann a bhith a' dèiligeadh ri buidhnean agus a' dèiligeadh ri daoine anns an àite-obrach agus stuth mar sin anns an fharsaingeachd? Ann an dòigh, tha i eadar-dhealaichte bhon taic a bhios an Riaghaltas a' cur ri stuth cultarach san fharsaingeachd. A bheil sin a' dèanamh ciall?
That is not the context that we are talking about. As I said, Clì is a bit worried that we are putting too much emphasis on cultural matters, rather than on ensuring that there are opportunities for the language to be learned. The language is suitable for every situation in our daily lives, such as in public places, in dealing with organisations and with people and in the workplace. In a way, that is different from the support that the Executive gives for cultural situations. Does that make sense?
I follow you. I will ask one technical question. The last paragraph of your letter to the committee says:
Tha sinn dèidheil gum bi beachd bho gach ceàrn den choimhearsnachd a' tighinn chun a' bhùird agus gum bi am bòrd a' coimhead air gach suidheachadh. Mar eisimpleir, feumaidh am bòrd a bhith a' coimhead air an dòigh anns a bheil foghlam air a sholarachadh air feadh Alba air fad. Tha sinn dèidheil gum bi beachdan bho dhaoine aig a bheil sealladh eadar-dhealaichte air a' chùis. Sin an rud a tha sinn a' ciallachadh anns an litir a fhuair a' chomataidh mìos no dhà air ais.
We would like people from every quarter of the community to join the board so that it considers every situation. For example, the board will consider the ways in which education is provided throughout Scotland. We would really like a few people who have a different vision of the situation. That is what I think that we mean. That was in the letter that the committee received last month.
Do you mean that people from throughout Scotland should be appointed to the board and that they need not even be people with a Gaelic background?
Nuair a tha thu a' coimhead air an dòigh anns a bheil luchd-ionnsachaidh sgapte air fad, chan eil iad a' tighinn dìreach bho àiteachan no sgìrean tradiseanta mar na h-Eileanan Siar agus a' Ghaidhealtachd. Tha iad a' tighinn bho àiteachan mar Ghlaschu is Dùn Èideann agus bho phòcaidean eile air feadh Alba. Nuair a tha am bile a' bruidhinn mu dheidhinn cur air dòigh foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig, thathar a' smaoineachadh an toiseach mu dheidhinn dìreach sgìrean far a bheil Gàidhlig ann bho thùs, ach tha tòrr iarrtas ann an àiteachan eadar-dhealaichte leithid na Crìochan agus taobh an iar Alba agus Alba a deas. Tha ùidh mhòr anns a' Ghàidhlig anns na h-àiteachan mar sin. A bheil sin a' freagairt ris na bha sibh ag iarraidh?
They would not just be people from places such as the Western Isles. Learners are spread throughout the country and do not come just from traditional places such as the islands and the Gaidhealtachd. Learners come from places such as Glasgow and Edinburgh. Other pockets of learners exist throughout Scotland.
That is fine. Thank you.
I am interested in your views about equal status for Gaelic. The bill would require the bòrd's functions to be
Tha mi a' smaoineachadh gum bi diofaran mòra ann. Bhon eòlas aig dùthchannan eile, chan eil inbhe thèarainte an còmhnaidh a' ciallachadh gum bi cothrom ann airson cleachdadh a' chànain. Mar eisimpleir, nuair a choimheadas tu air an t-suidheachadh ann an Èirinn, far an d'fhuaireadh inbhe thèarainte bliadhnaichean air ais, chì thu nach robh sin an còmhnaidh soirbheachail dhan strì airson a' cànain. An e sin an rud a tha sibh a' ciallachadh?
There would be a big difference. We have learned from the experiences of other countries that it is not easy to secure equal status. There must be opportunities for using the language. In Ireland, for example, the Irish language achieved secure status a long time ago and has been very successful, through striving for the language. Is that what you mean?
I am interested in the practical implications. Would the approach operate in the same way throughout Scotland or would there be differences between different parts of Scotland in what was understood by equal status?
Tha mi cinnteach gum bi diofaran mòra ann. Is dòcha gum bi na daoine aig nach eil Gàidhlig a' coimhead air a' chànan ann an dòigh eadar-dhealaichte ma tha inbhe co-ionannachd ann. Tha mi cinnteach gun dèanadh sin diofar mòr an àite dìreach inbhe thèarainte. Tha e ceart gu leòr a bhith a' cur inbhe thèarainte air pàipear agus a bhith ag ràdh gu bheil Gàidhlig na cànan oifigeil, ach chan eil sin a' ciallachadh gum bi daoine ga cleachdadh ann an aon dòigh 's nan robh inbhe co-ionannachd ann. Is e dìreach ceum nas àirde a thaobh a' chànain.
I think that there would be big differences. People who do not speak Gaelic might regard the language differently. The securing of equal status, rather than just secure status, would make a big difference. It is all very well to provide for secure status on paper and to say that Gaelic is an official language with secure status, but equal status would be a higher status.
I represent Dumfries. As you know, Gaelic was not traditionally part of the history of Dumfries and Galloway, although I accept that many people might well be interested in Gaelic language and culture. Dumfries and Galloway Council is concerned about what it might be required to do if Gaelic were to be given equal status. This might be an extreme example, but the council might be reluctant to publish all its committee papers in Gaelic, given that very few people in the region read Gaelic.
Chan eil sinn ag ràdh gum bu chòir a h-uile rud a tha sgrìobhte a bhith anns a' Ghàidhlig. Is dòcha gum biodh sin glè mhì-phragtaigeach. Cha bhiodh sin na dhòigh mhath airson airgead a chleachdadh. Chan eil airgead gu leòr ann, mar a tha fios aig a h-uile duine. Bu chòir cothrom a bhith ann airson a bhith a' gabhail cothrom air a' chànan ma tha iarrtas ann. Tha dà fhacal a tha am bile a' cleachdadh—gum bi "iarrtas reusanta" ann—ceart. Sin cnag na cùise, ach dè tha sin a ciallachadh? Tha mi ag aideachadh gur e ceist dhoirbh a fhreagairt ann an sgìre mar an sgìre agaibh.
All written material would not have to be published in Gaelic as you described. That might be impractical and would not be a good way of using money. There is not enough money, as everyone knows, but there should be an opportunity for everyone to take advantage of the language. I am sure that the bill uses the correct words: the heart of the matter is whether there is a need and a reasonable demand for the language. I agree that you raise a difficult question about areas such as yours. I know people in your area who are interested in Gaelic and would like to attend night classes, for example, but you are right to say that there might not be great public demand for Gaelic in your area.
Part of the rationale behind the bill is to allow for different approaches to be taken in different parts of the country. In Dumfries and Galloway, for example, the emphasis might be on opportunities for adult learners or on offering the Gaelic language as a second language in schools. Other areas might have a different emphasis. If Gaelic were to be afforded equal status, would councils and other public authorities still be able to develop the language in a way that was appropriate to their area? Is it necessary to say that Gaelic has equal status to be able to do that?
Tha bòrd Chlì air fad den bheachd gum biodh e fada nas fheàrr nan robh inbhe nas àirde ann an àite dìreach inbhe thèarainte. Tha inbhe thèarainte ag ràdh gu bheil an cànan oifigeil, ach chan eil sin ag ràdh gum bu chòir a h-uile cothrom a bhith ann airson an cànan a chleachdadh. Tha mi a' tuigsinn glè mhath na tha sibh ag ràdh nach bi iarrtas mòr a' dol air adhart anns an sgìre agaibh fhèin. Is dòcha gu bheil sibh ceart. Tha Clì glè mhothachail air na suidheachaidhean eadar-dhealaichte bho sgìre gu sgìre. Mar eisimpleir, bidh an t-iarrtas airson a' chànain fada nas àirde ann an àite mar na h-Eileanan an Iar agus a' Ghaidhealtachd.
I am of the opinion, as is the management board, that it would be far better if Gaelic had a higher status rather than just secure status. With secure status the language would be official, but that does not mean that people would have every opportunity to use it. I understand when you say that there might not be big demand in your area. Perhaps you are right. Clì is aware that areas are different and that demand in places such as the Western Isles is much greater.
I have a similar question to Elaine Murray's. What would be the difference in practice between the planning approach to education that is taken in the bill and a rights-based approach that says that all parents and pupils have a right to Gaelic-medium education?
Tha mi duilich. An can sibh sin a-rithist?
Could you say that again, please?
What would be the difference in practice? Hopefully, the bill will secure Gaelic, encourage more Gaelic learners and encourage the culture as well as the language to flourish. If you were to amend the bill to establish a right to Gaelic-medium education, as opposed to imposing a duty on local authorities to support Gaelic-medium education, what would the difference be in practice?
Ma choimheadas tu air na rudan aig a bheil dleastanas aig comhairle a thaobh a bhith a' cur air dòigh foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig, tha an dleastanas sin a' neartachadh oidhirpean an ùghdarrais a bhith a' cur air dòigh stuth airson luchd-ionnsachaidh. Chan eil e dìreach ag ràdh gu bheil còir aig a h-uile duine a bhith a' faighinn foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig. Bhiodh e fada nas fheàrr nan robh faclan nas làidire gan cleachdadh agus nan robh reachdas an Riaghaltais nas làidire anns a' chiad dol-a-mach. A bheil sibhse a' smaoineachadh gum bi trioblaid ann ma tha an dara dòigh a' gabhail àite?
If there is a duty on councils to provide Gaelic-medium education, that will strengthen the provision that is made, but it will not mean that everyone has the right to Gaelic-medium education. It would be far better to use stronger words for the status in the first instance. Do you think that there might be a problem if the second route is taken?
No, I think that your aim and the aim of the Executive to promote Gaelic are the same. The issue is whether the approach that is taken in the bill is the right one, or whether we should go for the approach that Clì supports, which is a rights-based approach.
Cha do thuig mi air fad a' cheist a tha sibh a' faighneachd dhomh. Dè tha sibh a' ciallachadh le seòrsa pàirtean den fhoghlam? Am mìnich sibh sin?
I do not understand totally what you are asking me. What do you mean by another part of education? Could you explain?
Certainly. The Standards in Scotland's Schools etc Act 2000 introduced a range of rights for all children, but we do not come from a tradition in this country of rights to education. Establishing specific rights to specific types of education might be the right way to go, but it might also open up other areas, so we might wish to extend rights within education to other groups.
A bheil sibh a' smaoineachadh air luchd-labhairt de chànanan eile mar Urdu?
Are you thinking of speakers of other languages such as Urdu?
No, not at all. The important thing to consider is the impact of the bill and whether it will achieve its objectives. The drafters of the bill have taken a planning approach, rather than a rights-based approach. We will be able to quiz the Executive about why it has taken that approach, but it would be good to hear reasons why the planning approach will not achieve what it is supposed to achieve and why we need to take a rights-based approach. I cannot see what taking a rights-based approach would do that taking the planning approach would not do, given that a planning approach supposedly provides the flexibility to reflect the different demands in different parts of the country. The right to an education in the Western Isles is not necessarily going to be exercised in the same way as it would be in places such as Dumfries and Galloway.
Feumaidh mi aideachadh nach eil mi a' tuigsinn carson nach eil sibh toilichte leis an dòigh anns a bheil Clì Gàidhlig agus daoine eile a' coimhead air còraichean dhaoine airson foghlam air fad. Nar beachd-sa, bidh an obair fada nas èifeachdaich ma tha faclan agus obair nas làidire ann, an àite dìreach a bhith a' bruidhinn mu dheidhinn dealbhachadh cànain agus dealbhachadh na dòigh anns a bheil foghlam air a sholarachadh do chloinn agus do dh'inbhich. Chan eil sinn a' faicinn gum bi trioblaid ann.
I must admit that I do not understand why you are not happy with the way in which we at Clì Gàidhlig view the rights of people to education in general. In my opinion, the work would be much more effective if much stronger words were used and work was going on instead of people saying, "We are devising a plan. We are considering the way in which we are providing for education for children and adults." We do not think there will be a problem. If you would like more information on Clì's vision, we could provide a written submission, which would set out more practically the way that we view the situation. Would that be useful?
That would be useful. I am not necessarily against taking the rights-based approach. I am just asking for your views on why it would be more effective. I am asking you to provide evidence that we could mull over and put to the Executive about why a rights-based approach would be better than a planning approach. You should not take my questions as hostile.
I want to pursue that a bit further. The idea is being presented that the planning approach will allow more co-operation between organisations, whereas there is a danger that the rights-based approach would create confrontation, with people, quite rightly, demanding their rights. What do you think about the Executive's argument that taking a planning approach—rather than a straightforward rights-based approach to do with fairness and justice—allows co-operation and is about encouraging and enabling?
A bheil sibh a' smaoineachadh gum bi strì eadar an dà choimhearsnachd mar thoradh air sealladh mar sin? An e sin na tha sibh ag ràdh?
Do you think that there might be strife between the two communities as a result of this vision? Is that what you are saying?
Others are presenting that view, but I am not saying that it is my view. We have to work out why the Executive has come up with the planning approach instead of the rights-based approach and consider the merits and demerits of it in law and in practice. The argument has been presented that the planning approach is more co-operative and consensual than the rights-based approach. Scottish education was founded on rights, so it is not alien to have a rights-based system.
Tha mi cinnteach gu bheil obair a' gabhail àite tro dealbhachadh. Tha mi a' tuigsinn dè tha sibh ag ràdh. Ann an dòigh, bidh cothrom ann airson na dà bhuidhinn a thighinn còmhla, an àite a bhith a' strì an aghaidh a chèile a thaobh foghlam. Aig an aon àm, is dòcha gu bheil trioblaid ann nach eil na dòighean cho cinnteach ma tha thu a' gabhail an dòigh dealbhachaidh an àite an dòigh a thaobh chòraichean dhaoine. Sin an rud a tha mi ag ràdh. Is dòcha gum bi prògraman agus stuth mar sin gan dealbhachadh, ach is dòcha nach bi iad gan cur an gnìomh. Chan eil cinnt ann gum bi a h-uile rud air a chur an gnìomh ma tha thu a' coimhead air an stuth bho shealladh dòigh dealbhachaidh. Tha mi cinnteach gu bheil sin a' dèanamh ciall.
I understand. I am sure that work is going on through planning, but in a way, there could be an opportunity for the two groups to come together instead of being against each other regarding education. Perhaps there is a problem that the ways are not so certain if a planning approach rather than a rights-based approach is taken. Perhaps programmes will be planned but not put into action. There is no certainty that everything will be put into play if a planning approach is taken. I hope that that makes sense.
It is about the delivery of the plan, not the plan itself.
I want to pursue that a little because we are having some difficulty in getting to the heart of the matter. The constitution of the Soviet Union of 1936 was the most amazing document ever; all the rights were in it, but no one got those rights. There are some limitations and there is a big difference between the theory and the practice. In this instance, there are quite a lot of limitations of resource. There are not enough primary and secondary teachers of the Gaelic language and there are not enough translators. There is a whole series of issues that would make the bringing about of the right to something much more difficult. The Executive is trying to look at each part of the country to see what the priorities are. It is trying to increase the resource over time and to make sure that we are able to deliver whatever the priorities are in those particular areas. What is wrong with such an approach?
Aig deireadh an latha, cò bhios a' dèanamh a' cho-dhùnaidh air an iarrtas a tha anns gach sgìre? An e daoine taobh a-staigh coimhearsnachd na Gàidhlig no daoine taobh a-muigh? Nì sin diofar mòr a thaobh nan co-dhùnaidhean sin.
At the end of the day, who will be making the decision? What kind of demand is there in each area? Who is thinking about people within the Gaelic community, or is it all about people outwith the Gaelic community? That makes a big difference to such decisions.
Does the shape of the plan not give powers to the Gaelic board and to the elected local authority in that particular area to have a large part in such decisions?
Fon bhile, tha am facal mu dheireadh leis na h-ùghdarrasan an àite leis a' bhòrd fhèin. Tha sin a' dèanamh diofar. Ann an dòigh, a bheil sibh dìreach a' faighinn a-mach rudan anns a bheil duilgheadasan a thaobh sin?
In the bill, the last word is with the local authorities rather than with the board itself. That makes a difference. It is with the way in which people find out about situations that there are difficulties. Does that make sense?
I think so. We have given you a hard time on that one. We will move on to a slightly different aspect.
I have a question about distance learning. If only one, two or three pupils from a school in the Borders or the south of Scotland, for example, want to learn Gaelic and there is no Gaelic teacher, do you agree that the use of technology through videoconferencing and distance learning could play an important role?
Tha mi cinnteach gu bheil sin uabhasach cudthromach. Nuair a thòisich mise air Gàidhlig ionnsachadh, rinn mi cùrsaichean tro foghlam aig astar a bha uabhasach math. Bidh sin na phàirt uabhasach cudthromach den obair, gu h-àraidh anns na coimhearsnachdan a tha sgapte. Ma tha dìreach aon duine ag ionnsachadh Gàidhlig, bidh e fada nas fheàrr gum bi e na phàirt de lìonra nan colaistean mar Oilthigh na Gaidhealtachd a tha a' crochadh gu ìre mhòr air stuthan teicnigeach mar sin. Tha mi ag aontachadh ribh mu dheidhinn sin.
Certainly. That is very important. When I started learning Gaelic, my initial course was through distance learning, which is certainly an excellent way of learning. It is a vital part of the work, particularly in scattered communities. As you have indicated, in any area there might be just one person learning the language so distance learning would be a much more practical approach. The network of colleges that are part of the UHI Millennium Institute depends on those technical facilities. I agree with you.
The minister gave evidence to the committee last week that a study into that subject is on-going, which is encouraging.
Gu dearbh, bhiodh e na thaghadh glè fheumail. Chan e an dòigh as fheàrr—bhiodh e fada nas fheàrr nam biodh tidsear ann gu pearsanta—ach mura h-eil dòigh eile ann, bhiodh e fada nas fheàrr a bhith a' cleachdadh stuth teicnigeach ann am foghlam aig astar.
Certainly. That would be a useful option. It would probably not be the most effective way of learning—the most effective way is to have a teacher on a one-to-one basis—but if there is no other option it would be effective to use technology and distance learning.
Are you aware of many cases of good practice in distance learning of Gaelic in the Highlands and Islands?
Tha tòrr ann. Mar eisimpleir, tha Sabhal Mòr Ostaig anns an Eilean Sgitheanach a' cleachdadh stuth mar sin. Tha Clì glè mhothachail air cùl an cùrsa-inntrigidh a tha a' dol air adhart an-dràsta. Tha an cùrsa air a bhith uabhasach soirbheachail, le daoine a' gabhail pàirt bho air feadh Alba agus na Rìoghachd Aonaichte air fad agus bho thall thairis. Tha e air a bhith uabhasach soirbheachail bhon a chaidh a stèidheachadh bho chionn trì bliadhna. Tha an cùrsa sin a' cleachdadh an eadar-lìon agus an fòn airson tutorials. Sin fianais gu bheil stuth mar sin ag obair ann an dòigh glè mhath.
Sabhal Mòr Ostaig, which is the Gaelic college on Skye, uses such material in teaching the language and that work is very successful. People throughout Scotland use the course, and even people from abroad, so it has been very successful since it was established about three years ago. The college uses the internet, with on-line tutorials, and the phone. That is evidence that that kind of course works.
Should the issue of teacher supply be left to the plans?
Dè an dòigh eile airson coimhead air solarachadh thidsearan?
What other way is there to look at the matter of specifying the supply of teachers?
So you want the issue to be addressed in the bill.
Bidh. Tha e cudthromach gum bi cùrsaichean-trèanaidh ann agus gu bheil maoineachadh ann air an son. Aig deireadh an latha, bidh an dòigh anns a bheil a' chlann air an teagasg anns na sgoiltean a' crochadh air gum bi tidsearan gu leòr ann. Mar sin, tha feum air cùrsaichean-trèanaidh airson daoine anns na h-aonadan Gàidhlig anns na sgoiltean.
Yes. It is important that training courses are provided and that there is funding for them. At the end of the day, the way in which pupils are taught in schools is dependant on there being sufficient teachers to meet the demand. Therefore, there is a need for training courses for people in the schools and the Gaelic-medium units.
If local authorities have endeavoured to pull together Gaelic plans that include the teacher supply issue, worked with training colleges and perhaps invested in new technology as a way in, would that not be a reasonable defence if they could not provide specifically for the demand that might emerge in parts of the country where, historically, demand has not been great? If local authorities have made reasonable efforts, perhaps they should not be considered in breach of whatever legislation emerges.
A-rithist, tha e a' crochadh air an fhacal "reusanta". Tha e na fhacal glè dhoirbh a bhith a' mìneachadh dè tha e a' ciallachadh.
Again, that depends on what is reasonable. It is difficult to define what "reasonable" means in relation to demand.
The two dilemmas that face members of the committee are, first, the search for a reasonable definition of "reasonable" and, secondly, the meaning of culture. I spent a period of time involved in the culture portfolio and I assure you that my understanding of culture was not necessarily the same as the understanding of others in the sector. We need to nail down those two issues accurately, as best we can, and I wonder how we should deal with them. From the presentation that you gave earlier, I did not get a sense of how you think culture should be reflected in the bill. I hear the word a lot but I do not necessarily have any comprehension of it in the context of the bill.
Mar a thuirt mi na bu tràithe, chan eil Clì an aghaidh taic bhon Riaghaltas a bhith a' dol do chultar san fharsaingeachd, ach chan eil cultar agus cànan nan aon rud. Tha cànan na phàirt cudthromach de chultar, ach chan e an aon rud a tha ann. Bu chòir dhuinn a bhith a' dèiligeadh ris an dà rud ann an dòigh fa leth, an àite a bhith dìreach a' cur cànan còmhla ri cultar anns an fharsaingeachd.
As I said earlier, Clì is not opposed to Government support going to culture in general but culture and language are not the same thing. Language plays a large part in culture but they are not the same. They should be dealt with separately and in different ways instead of being lumped together.
That is the dilemma. When you engage with folk in different parts of Scotland who care passionately about sustaining Gaelic, much of the discussion is about how the language and the culture are almost inextricably linked. That engenders a passionate debate for those of us who do not come from a Gaelic tradition, as the point is made powerfully that a simple distinction should not be made between the two. I do not think that there is an easy answer to the question, if there is an answer at all. That is the real problem for most of us when we explore this issue.
Tha mi ag aontachadh ribh gu ìre, ach aig an aon àm chan eil e freagarrach a bhith a' dèiligeadh ri Gàidhlig ann an dòigh cultarach a-mhàin. Tha làn fhios aig a h-uile duine ann an saoghal na Gàidhlig gum bi cultar agus cànan cho dlùth ri chèile 's tha e glè dhoirbh a bhith a' dèanamh sgaradh eadar a dhà. Aig an aon àm, ma choimheadas sinn dìreach air na cùisean a tha sinn a' deasbad an-dràsta, chan eil e fìor a ràdh gum bu chòir dhuinn a bhith a' coimhead air stuth dìreach bho shealladh cultarach, oir tha cultar na choncept fada nas fharsainge na cànan. Mar eisimpleir, chan eil fhios agam cò thuirt e, ach chuala mi an t-seachdain a chaidh bho dhuine a bha a' bruidhinn mu dheidhinn dùthchannan ann an Roinn Eòrpa an ear. Thuirt esan gu bheil iad a' seinn òrain dìreach ann an cànan aca fhèin ach tha an cànan a' bàsachadh.
I agree with you to a certain extent. At the same time, it is not appropriate for us to deal with Gaelic only in a cultural way. In the Gaelic world, we all know that language and culture are closely intertwined and that it is very difficult to separate them. Nevertheless, it is not true that we should consider the matters that we have just debated only from a cultural point of view, because culture is a much wider concept than just language. I will provide members with an example. I do not know who said it, but last week I heard someone who was talking about European countries say, "We are singing a song in our language, but the language is dying." Does that make sense? I hope that it does.
I want to ask about funding, which links back to the issue of the supply of teachers. I understand that the Gaelic development fund will have a budget of roughly £1.75 million, £350,000 of which will go to Bòrd na Gàidhlig to assist public bodies in producing their plans. The remaining £1.4 million will go to public bodies to enable them to do that. Additional money is being made available to help with the preparation of plans. The existing Gaelic-specific grant is about £3.7 million and goes to 21 local authorities, although only 14 of them have primary school Gaelic provision. There is anxiety that the preparation of the plans, for which £1.4 million has been put aside, may generate more demands on the Gaelic-specific grant. How do you think that demand is likely to emerge? What might the resource implications be?
An e iarrtas air feadh Alba a tha sibh a' ciallachadh?
Are you referring to demand throughout Scotland?
Yes.
Tha e fìor a ràdh, mar a tha làn fhios againn, gu bheil iarrtas eadar-dhealaichte bho sgìre gu sgìre. Mar a tha fios aig a h-uile duine, tha ùidh anns a' Ghàidhlig a' dol suas ann an àiteachan far nach eil Gàidhlig na phàirt de tradisean na sgìre. Aig an aon àm, tha sinn glè mhothachail nach eil maoineachadh mòr ann airson solarachadh ghoireasan airson a' chànain. Is dòcha gum bu chòir dhuinn a bhith a' coimhead gu cothromach air an dòigh anns a bheil an t-iarrtas diofaraichte bho sgìre gu sgìre. Ann an àiteachan far nach eil tòrr iarrtas ann, is dòcha nach bu chòir dhuinn cleachdadh tòrr den mhaoineachadh a tha a' tighinn bhon Riaghaltas. Tha feum ann a bhith a' coimhead air a' phlana bho shealladh Alba air fad.
I understand. As we all know, demand varies from area to area. You are right about that. At the same time, as everyone is aware, interest in Gaelic is increasing in areas that are not traditional Gaelic-speaking areas. We are very aware that there is not much funding to facilitate access to the language. Perhaps we should consider the way in which demand varies from area to area. Perhaps areas where there is not much demand should not receive the same amount of Government funding as areas where there is greater demand. Planning should be on a nationwide basis.
I want to establish what the key constraint is in local authorities that are in receipt of the Gaelic-specific grant. I am thinking of my own local authority, Renfrewshire, which is in receipt of the Gaelic-specific grant but does not use it for pre-school, primary or secondary provision or, as far as I am aware, for the promotion of Gaelic among adult learners. Is the issue in local authorities such as Renfrewshire or the Ayrshires an absence of demand from parents, or is the absence of a supply of teachers constraining the emergence of a primary unit, for example?
Tha an dà chuid ann, agus tha an aon rud a' neartachadh an rud eile. Tha e fìor a ràdh nach bi daoine a' tighinn gu clasaichean mura h-eil tidsearan ann. Chan eil mi glè eòlach air an t-suidheachadh anns an sgìre agaibh fhèin, ach tha mi eòlach air an t-suidheachadh ann an sgìrean eile. Ma tha daoine ann aig a bheil ùidh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus gun chlasaichean-oidhche air an son, bidh iad a' feuchainn clas no dhà a chur air dòigh, ach bidh iad a' call ùidh às dèidh ùine mura h-eil tòrr ghoireasan ann no mura h-eil tidsearan ann fad an t-siubhail. Ann an dòigh, tha an aon rud a' crochadh air an rud eile.
There are probably two parts to that, and one strengthens the other. If there are no teachers, then nobody will come forward for classes. I do not know your area, but I am aware of situations in other areas where people have an interest in Gaelic. There might be no evening classes, and people might try to set up a couple of classes. After a time, if there are still not many facilities or teachers, people lose the interest that they had. One thing feeds the other and is dependant on it.
Is your organisation monitoring the total of the demands that have been made by parents who have written to authorities, looking for Gaelic-medium education, but then learning that it is not possible because of the constraints on supply? Are you aware of any such monitoring by any other organisation? How easy is it to get a sense of what the suppressed demand might be? Has that been well surveyed, and do you expect that the bill will help to monitor the situation more systematically in future?
Tha sinn an dòchas gum bi sin ag èirigh mar thoradh bhon bhile. Mar a thuirt sibh, bho chionn bhliadhnachan air ais bhathar a' feuchainn sgrùdadh a dhèanamh air an ìre de dh'iarrtas airson na Gàidhlig, ach tha e glè dhoirbh a bhith a' dèanamh measadh air na h-àireamhan air fad. Tha sibh ceart gu bheil feum mòr ann airson cruinneachadh fiosrachadh mar sin ma tha sinn ri chur plana èifeachdach air dòigh. Sin an fhreagairt dhan cheist.
We certainly hope that that will be the case and that it will happen as a result of the bill. Some years ago, we tried to carry out a survey of the level of demand for Gaelic. It is difficult to assess the figures and the statistics but, as you have indicated, there is a great need to collect that information and to process the data. If we do that, we will be in a better position to develop an effective plan.
How widespread is your organisation? Do you have a presence or activities in all local authority areas in Scotland?
Tha a' bhallrachd againn bho air feadh Alba. Tha an àireamh de bhuill nas àirde ann an cuid de sgìrean na ann an sgìrean eile. Tha tòrr ùidh ann an àiteachan de dh'Alba mar Dhùn Èideann is Glaschu, far a bheil ceanglan teaghlaich leis a' Ghaidhealtachd agus far a bheil tòrr stuth a' dol air adhart. Mar eisimpleir, tha sgoil Ghàidhlig ann an Glaschu a chaidh fhosgladh dà no trì bhliadhna air ais. Tha sin air a bhith glè shoirbheachail. Tha a' bhallrachd againn chan ann dìreach bho Alba ach bhon Rìoghachd Aonaichte air fad agus bho thall thairis. Tha a' bhallrachd a' leudachadh a-mach gu dùthchannan eile mar na Stàitean Aonaichte, Canada agus àiteachan eile cuideachd.
We have members throughout Scotland. It is true that our membership is bigger in some areas than in others. There are some places in Scotland where there is a lot of interest, including Edinburgh and Glasgow. In Glasgow, that might be linked to families that have come from the Highlands. A lot of things are happening in those areas. There is a Gaelic school in Glasgow, which was opened two or three years ago, so we have been very successful in those areas. We work not only in Scotland but in the United States and in Europe. Our membership extends to other countries, including the United States and Canada.
It is presumably fair to say that there are three areas that we should be considering: the homelands—the west Highlands and the islands in particular; Glasgow, Edinburgh and perhaps Perth, where there is a reasonably significant number of Gaelic speakers or learners; and areas such as Orkney and Shetland, where there is no tradition of Gaelic, but where there is a different tradition. There are also the Borders and, possibly, Dumfries and Galloway, where Gaelic has never been spoken. Different criteria perhaps apply to those areas.
Bhruidhinn sibh air dà rud air an robh sinn a' smaoineachadh. An toiseach, tha sibh ceart gur e tidsearan an rud as cudthromaich a dh'fheumas sinn ma tha sinn gu bhith a' teagasg dhaoine eile a tha a' tighinn don chànan. Tha tòrr iarrtas ann airson barrachd àiteachan air chùrsaichean-trèanaidh far am bi daoine air an trèanadh a bhith nan tidsearan luchd-ionnsachaidh.
You have mentioned two issues that we have been discussing. The supply of teachers—to teach others the language—is probably one of the most important. There is a great demand for training courses and places where people can be trained as teachers. You are also correct on signs, leaflets and so on in public areas, providing evidence that Gaelic is part of daily life. People who do not speak Gaelic are not aware of how important those signs and leaflets are, or of the importance of evidence of Gaelic in public life. At Clì, we are considering a plan to implement a learning system that will provide people with an opportunity to get a certificate. That would mean that learners would have confidence in the way in which they were learning the language. At the end of the day, we are an organisation that was set up to provide facilities for learners. Learners are still a very important part of our work, but we also support those who are fluent in the language.
I have a point that may or may not be technical. Compared to the draft bill, the bill as introduced says that it should apply to devolved functions of Scottish public authorities only, whereas the Welsh Language Act 1993 and the Official Languages Act 2003 in Ireland listed public bodies. The problem is that the bill, if passed as it stands, would not apply to bodies such as the Inland Revenue and the Department for Work and Pensions, and people probably have more connection with the functions of those bodies than they do with the devolved functions of Scottish public authorities. What is your view on that? Is it related to your definition of equal status? You may argue that the bodies to which the bill applies would not necessarily need to be listed if there was equal status.
Tha mi cinnteach gu bheil sin na phàirt cudthromach. Tha fios againn nach bi dleastanas air buidhnean mar sin a bhith a' solarachadh plana Gàidhlig. Nar beachd-sa, tha sin na bheàrn mhòr. Bu chòir an dleastanas sin a bhith ann, ach chan eil fhios againn air an fhreagairt don cheist doirbh sin. Nar beachd-sa, bu chòir buidhnean mar sin a bhith a' gabhail pàirt ann am plana nàiseanta a' chànain.
I am sure that that is very important. We know that such organisations do not have a duty to specify Gaelic plans and, in our opinion, that is a huge gap. That duty should be there. It is very difficult, and we do not know the answer to that question. However, in our opinion, those organisations should participate in a national plan. Does that answer your question?
Yes. Thank you.
Pam, I will finish by going back to the point that Ken Macintosh raised about information on the practical implications of the bill. If, after reflecting on this morning's evidence, you can help us further on that, we would find that useful. I am sure that committee members are concentrating on practical implications such as what we can do to help the Gaelic language, how the bill fulfils that desire, where the gaps are that we should be concentrating on and what practical moves we can make to secure and sustain the language. It would be useful if you could write to the clerk with any further thoughts on such aspects.
Mòran taing airson èisteachd.
Thank you very much for listening to me.
Our second panel of witnesses is from Comann nam Pàrant. I welcome Magaidh Wentworth, the national co-ordinator, and Iain MacIlleChiar, a committee member of the organisation. I hope that you will accept my apologies for any deficiencies in the translation of names and things. You are both welcome. Would you like to make an opening statement to supplement your written submission?
Bha mise a' dol gur moladh airson cho math 's a bha a' Ghàidhlig agaibh an toiseach. Madainn mhath dhuibh uile, agus mar a chanas sinn sa Ghàidhlig, a chàirdean, feumaidh mi ur leisgeul iarraidh. Tha mi car coltach ris an Dr Mhoireach oir dhùisg mi madainn an-diugh le tùchadh nam amhaich, agus ma chailleas mi mo ghuth leitheach slighe troimhe, tha mi duilich. Feuchaidh mi cuideachd ri gabhail air mo shocair airson nan teangairean air mo chùlaibh an seo. Cumaidh mi seo caran goirid sgiobalta agus fàgaidh sin barrachd ùine airson cheistean.
I was going to praise your Gaelic, which is good. Good morning everyone and how are you? That is what we say in Gaelic, friends. I need to ask you to excuse me: I woke this morning with laryngitis, so if I lose my voice halfway through, I am sorry. I will try to take my time for the interpreters behind me. I will keep my comments somewhat short and that will leave time for questions.
I will try to put the situation in context. You made a comparison with the position in Canada. In due course, we will hear evidence from the Welsh Language Board about the position in Wales. In both those countries, the minority language—if that is the right way in which to describe it—is spoken routinely by a much higher percentage of the population throughout the country. Do any differences arise in Scotland because the position here is different from that in Wales and Canada, which have a different balance of language forces?
Tha mi a' tuigsinn gum feum an dòigh anns a bheil na planaichean cànain gan dealbhachadh agus gan cur an gnìomh a bhith eadar-dhealaichte. Ach, mar a chì mise e, feumaidh reachdas sam bith ùghdarras a thoirt dhan t-sluagh, no cha bhi an siostam ag obair nuair a tha rudan gan diùltadh orra. Mar eisimpleir, tha cuid againn glè fhortanach oir tha sinn a' fuireach ann an sgìrean far a bheil deagh rùn aig a' chomhairle is poileasaidh Gàidhlig a tha ga chur an gnìomh agus far a bheil eachdraidh suas ri faisg air 20 bliadhna a-nis de fhoghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig. Ach tha daoine eile ann nach eil cho fortanach. Tha cuid de na comhairlean fhathast teagmhach. Tha feadhainn aca air a bhith nàimhdeil tro na bliadhnaichean agus tha iad air bacadh a chur air pàrantan bho bhith a' faighinn foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig.
I understand that the way in which Gaelic language plans are devised must be different, but an act may or may not give status and authority to the people—that depends on how it works. Some of us are fortunate to live in the areas of councils that support Gaelic, put Gaelic plans into action and have had Gaelic-medium education for more than 20 years. Other people are not as fortunate. Some councils remain a bit doubtful and have not been favourable towards Gaelic.
Do you support the general approach of having the Gaelic board, the plans and the different approach for each local and public authority, to try to proceed on a structured basis?
Tha mi a' dol leis gu mòr. Tha mi a' smaoineachadh gur e an rud as cudthromaiche a chunna mi ann am fear de na pàipearan-taic no na pàipearan-comhairleachaidh a thàinig leis a' bhile gur e an Riaghaltas fhèin a' chiad bhuidheann a dh'fheumas plana a chur ri chèile, a chionn 's gu bheil Riaghaltasan a' tighinn agus a' falbh agus tha luchd-poileataics a' tighinn agus a' falbh. Tha aon chòignear no sianar de mhinistearan Gàidhlig air a bhith againn anns an ùine a tha mise air a bhith an lùib Comann nam Pàrant. Tha e cudthromach gu bheil rudan stèidhichte ann an lagh mar chòraichean agus nach eil e dìreach an urra ri ge b' e cò a tha ann aig an àm an rud a dhèanamh mar a tha e a' dol air adhart.
Yes. I agree with that very much. The most important feature that I saw in a consultation paper that accompanied the bill was that the first group that must produce a plan is the Executive. Executives come and go and politicians come and go. In the time that I have been involved in Comann nam Pàrant, five or six ministers have been responsible for Gaelic. It is important to establish rights in law and not to depend on the present minister to do something.
We will explore that more.
Your written evidence says:
Mar a thuirt mi na bu tràithe, dè a thachras mura h-eil buidheann air choreigin a' cur plana an gnìomh? Ged a bhiodh poileasaidh agus plana cànain aca agus ged a bhiodh Bòrd na Gàidhlig air iarraidh orra a chur an gnìomh, mura h-eil a' bhuidheann fhathast ga dhèanamh, tha e an uair sin an urra ris a' mhinistear. Ma tha ministear làidir gnìomhach ann, glè mhath; dh'fhaodadh gun toireadh e orra sin a dhèanamh. Ach ma tha fear ann nach eil buileach cho dealasach, chan eil seasamh againn ann an lagh. Chan urrainn dhuinn a dhol gu ombudsman no duine eile. Chan eil còraichean sam bith againn.
As I said, what happens if an organisation does not put into practice a policy—even if it has a policy and a Gaelic plan and even if Bòrd na Gàidhlig asks it to put that policy into action? If the minister is strong and principled, he could make the organisation put the policy into practice, but if he is not, the organisation would not do that and we would have no standing in law. We could not approach an ombudsman or anyone else. We would have no rights.
The situation depends on which public body is involved. Recourse could be had to the Scottish public services ombudsman. Perhaps we will explore with ministers whether the ombudsman would afford that protection.
Is e Comann nam Pàrant a tha annainn, agus mar sin is ann ri còraichean phàrantan agus clann as motha a tha sinne a' dèiligeadh. Mar eisimpleir, tha poileasaidh air a bhith aig Comhairle na Gaidhealtachd, far a bheil mise a' fuireach, gun tòisich a' chomhairle roinn Ghàidhlig ann an sgoil a tha stèidhichte mar-thà, ma tha ceathrar phàistean aig aois sgoile a bha ag iarraidh foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig. Tha mi a' smaoineachadh gum biodh sin na dheagh slat-tomhais de dh'iarrtas air feadh Alba. Ma tha cròileagan air chois far am bi clann nas òige na aois sgoile a' tighinn suas agus ag ionnsachadh na Gàidhlig, bhiodh tuairmse aig a' chomhairle gun cumadh roinn Ghàidhlig a' dol agus gum fàsadh i tro na bliadhnaichean ri tighinn. Bha thu a' bruidhinn air an fhacal "practical", agus sin an rud a mholamaid.
We are Comann nam Pàrant, therefore we represent mostly the rights of parents and children. The policy in the Highland Council area, where I live, was that where there were four children of school age, the council would start a Gaelic-medium unit in the local school. That would be a good measure for elsewhere in Scotland, and could be used to establish things like playgroups. The council might have the idea that the Gaelic department would keep going and grow in the years to come. You talked about what is practical. That is what we recommend.
How would that be different from what the bill proposes for local plans? Surely all those issues could be incorporated into local plans, given that ministers would have the power to direct public bodies if they did not implement their plans. I wonder what the difference would be. Could you explain to me what the difference would be if the bill stated that Gaelic should be treated equally with English? What would be the difference in operation between your approach and the Executive's approach?
Tha mi mothachail air fiosrachadh bho thall thairis—leithid Èirinn, far a bheil achd ann—gum feum daoine tilleadh agus tilleadh agus tilleadh chun na cùrsa sin a chionn 's nach eil buidhnean ga chur an gnìomh. Ged is e Gaeilge an cànan oifigeil agus am prìomh chànan ann an Èirinn, b' fheudar do dh'achd cànain a bhith air a thoirt a-staigh an sin a chionn 's nach robh caochladh bhuidhnean Riaghaltais a' cur an dleastanas an gnìomh. Tha fhios agam cuideachd, mar fhear a dh'ionnsaich eachdraidh anns an oilthigh, ma tha thu a' faicinn achd a' nochdadh bliadhna às dèidh bliadhna, tha e a' ciallachadh nach robh e ag obair. Saoilidh mise gu bheil tuilleadh is a' chòir dorsan-teichidh anns a' bhile mar-thà. Faodaidh buidhnean poblach a ràdh, "Uill, chan eil iarrtas ann, agus chan eil gnothach againne ris an sin." Tha e ro fhurasta dhaibh sin a dhèanamh mar a tha e an-dràsta.
I am aware of what has been happening overseas, for example in Ireland, where there is a language act. Often, people have to return to the act because it is not being implemented. Although Gaelic is the main official language, Ireland still had to bring in a language act because the authorities were not fulfilling their duties. I know, having learned history at university, that if an act appears year after year it is not working. There are too many get-outs in the bill that will enable public organisations to make excuses and say, "We have nothing to do with that." It is too easy for them to do that as it is.
There is a difference, which we will need to explore, between what you want in education and what you want in other public spheres.
I want to explore further the demand for equal status, or co-validity, of the language. It is not just about practicalities, is it? It is about the psychological impact of having a statement that provides equal status for Gaelic. That has a knock-on effect on native Gaelic speakers' confidence that they can progress in life using their language. Is that not what it is all about?
Mar a thuirt thu, tha e co-cheangailte ri modh agus urram agus inbhe air feadh na dùthcha. Ach nuair a thig e gu a h-aon 's gu dhà, mar a their an sean-fhacal againn ann an Gàidhlig, is e am beul a labhras, ach an gnìomh a dhearbhas. Uill, is e an gnìomh a tha a' dearbhadh an seo. Tha sibhse mar Phàrlamaid a' cur an gnìomh gun urrainn dhuinne tighinn an seo agus fianais a thoirt seachad ann an Gàidhlig. Tha sin cudthromach. Tha mi ag aontachadh gu mòr leis an sin. Sin a bha mi a' ciallachadh leis a' bhun-phrionnsabal gu bheil Gàidhlig is Beurla co-ionann ri chèile ann am prionnsabal.
Yes. As you said, it is connected with respect and good manners, but when it comes down to it, we have an old proverb in Gaelic—"It is the mouth that speaks, but it is the deed that makes it work." The Parliament is putting that into action by bringing us here and we are giving our evidence in Gaelic. I agree with that very much. In principle, Gaelic and English are equal.
Is there a difference between different parts of Scotland? I can see how equal status—however you define it—could be relevant in areas such as the Western Isles, where there are a significant number of Gaelic speakers; that would also be true to a slightly lesser extent in the Highlands. In other parts of Scotland, however, would equal status be a reality in terms of the psychology that Adam Ingram talked about, or in terms of practical issues such as supply and numbers? Is there not a different concept in other parts of Scotland from what there is in the home territories?
Tha a' cheist sin ag èirigh ann an dùthchannan eile cuideachd far a bheil cànan nas làidire am pàirt dhen dùthaich na am pàirt eile. Cluinnidh sibh, tha mi cinnteach, ann am fianais Bòrd na Cuimris, gur ann tro planaichean cànain a tha iadsan ag obair cuideachd. Tha iad a' tòiseachadh anns a' chridhe, mar gum biodh, agus ag obair a-mach bho sin.
That question arises in other countries. Some parts of the country are stronger than others. Again, the Welsh Language Board gave evidence that it has language plans and that is the way in which it works. It starts in the heartland of the language and works outwards.
I want to talk about rights in education. To what extent have parents and pupils been refused Gaelic-medium education by local authorities in different parts of Scotland? To what extent have their reasonable demands not been met by local authorities in the past?
Feumaidh mi a bhith onarach agus a ràdh gun robh sin a' tachairt barrachd anns na bliadhnaichean a chaidh seachad, ach tha e air tachairt ann an cuid de dh'àiteachan gu mòr. Anns na comhairlean far a bheil foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig stèidhichte, tha an t-eagal air a bhith air oifigich-foghlaim na comhairle ro leudachadh air na tha ann de roinnean Gàidhlig air sàilleabh gainnead luchd-teagaisg. Tha sin air a bhith na chnap-starra cho mòr 's a tha air a bhith ann bhon a thòisich an gnothach.
To be honest, that used to happen but it still happens in some places. Also, in council areas where there is established Gaelic-medium education, education officers have been afraid to broaden out the areas in which Gaelic is taught because of the shortage of teachers. That has been a big stumbling block since the issue arose.
It is interesting that you say that. We might get a chance to return to the subject of teacher supply, but I certainly endorse your remarks about needing to supply more teachers. Otherwise, we cannot increase Gaelic learning at all.
Tha mi a' smaoineachadh, bho latha gu latha—
I am sorry to interrupt. The interpreters cannot hear you for some reason. Your microphone seems to have gone off—it is not your fault. Could you start again?
Dè bha mi ag ràdh a-nis?
Now, what was I saying?
Could you repeat that little bit, if you can remember it? Do you want to go over the question again, Ken?
Some parents want to assert their rights. In other areas of Scotland, there is no demand, and we need to encourage demand, rather than just meet it.
Chan eil cuid dhe na comhairlean a' sgaoileadh fiosrachaidh mar a dh'fhaodadh iad. Ged a tha roinn Ghàidhlig ann an aon sgoil an àiteigin anns an t-siorrachd sin, chan eil am fiosrachadh sin a' dol a-mach dha na sgoiltean eile. Ma tha e a' dol a-mach dha na sgoiltean eile, is dòcha nach eil ceannardan nan sgoiltean ga thoirt seachad dha na pàrantan, air eagal 's gum bi iadsan a' call clann air sàilleabh sin. Mar sin, fiù 's far a bheil foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig ann, chan urrainn dhut a ràdh dè iarrtas a tha ann. Tha a' mhòr-chuid de dhaoine ann an Alba gu tur aineolach mun Ghàidhlig, agus chan eil mi a' cantainn sin le droch chiall. Tha mi a' ciallachadh dìreach nach eil fios aca mu dheidhinn na Gàidhlig. Cha d'fhuair iad fhèin foghlam sam bith anns an sgoil mu dheidhinn na Gàidhlig, gun ghuth air foghlam ann an Gàidhlig no cothrom air Gàidhlig ionnsachadh mar chànan.
Some councils do not distribute information as they ought to or as they could. There might be a Gaelic department in one school in an area, but the information might not be going out to the other schools. Perhaps the head teachers are not distributing the information to the parents, because they might lose children from their schools as a result. Even where there is Gaelic-medium education, we cannot really say that there is no demand for it. Most people in Scotland are ignorant about the Gaelic language. I do not mean that in a bad way; I mean that they do not know about the language. They did not have any education about Gaelic in school, and they did not have the opportunity to learn the language.
I would agree with that, and I want to pick up on the point about whether we should have a rights-based approach or a planning approach in the bill. If we were to follow a rights-based approach, in what ways would the parental right to a Gaelic-medium education be tempered or qualified? We could introduce a test of reasonableness. Would you wish to introduce any other qualification? How would you interpret a test of reasonableness across Scotland?
Tha mi a' smaoineachadh gur e sin an rud a bha mi ag ràdh na bu tràithe. Tha e air obrachadh mu thuath tro na bliadhnaichean gun robh ceathrar chloinne gu leòr airson an gnothach fhaighinn a' dol. Is e àm uabhasach mì-chinnteach agus cugallach do phàrantan nuair a tha am pàiste eadar trì agus còig. Feumaidh cinnt air choreigin a bhith aca gu bheil an t-aonad Gàidhlig a' dol a leantainn. Anns an fhianais sgrìobhte againn, bhruidhinn sinn air siostam foghlaim, agus tuilleadh agus tuilleadh tha sin a' tighinn mar phàirt de shiostam foghlaim na h-Alba. Ma tha teagamh sam bith ann nach eil roinn Ghàidhlig a' dol a dh'fhosgladh, no gu bheil i a' dol a dh'fhosgladh ach cha cum i a' dol ach ma tha clann gu leòr innte no is dòcha gun dùin i an ceann trì bliadhna, chan eil cuid de na pàrantan a' dol a chur an cuid chloinne a-staigh dhan sgoil sin.
That is what I was talking about earlier. It worked for us, over the years—up north, anyway. We had four children, and that was enough to get things going. It is an uncertain time for parents when they have a child of between three and five years. They need some kind of certainty that their children's education will follow on, and that there is an education system there. More and more, we are becoming a part of the Scottish system. If there is some doubt that a Gaelic unit will keep going, and if there are not enough children using it, the unit might close after a year or two. Some parents will not send their children to a school where that is the situation.
Perhaps this is an obvious point, but is not the issue of Gaelic-medium education central to the debate? If that provision is enhanced and increased, the language has a basic and strong support on which to build. The important issue is at what point there is a trigger that produces the right to, or the availability of, Gaelic-medium education. That is the essence of what is involved. I wonder whether the substance of the dispute about rights is that you are trying to get to a position in which there is a reasonable level of demand; provision is stabilised, which ensures that people have confidence in it; and that gets the response of sufficient funding to make it happen. Moreover, would not the hope be that there would be Gaelic-medium provision right through education, from nursery to primary, secondary and perhaps even higher education as well? Is that the essence of the Gaelic-medium issue?
Mar a thuirt mi, tha sinn fortanach nach eil an t-uabhas de roinnean Gàidhlig air dùnadh tro na bliadhnaichean, ach tha feadhainn aca air dùnadh. Tha mi toilichte gun do thog thu a' phuing mu dheidhinn foghlam aig ìre àrd-sgoil, a chionn 's gur e cnap-starra mòr eile a tha sin. Tha sinn a' call na cloinne a rinn cho math agus a dh'ionnsaich an cuid Gàidhlig anns a' bhun-sgoil. Nuair a thèid iad dhan àrd-sgoil, mar is trice chan fhaigh iad ach Gàidhlig mar chuspair, agus is dòcha aon chuspair eile—eachdraidh no cruinn-eòlas no rudeigin—suas chun a' cheathramh bliadhna. Chan eil cothrom aca air deuchainnean a ghabhail tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig ach ann an Gàidhlig, eachdraidh agus cruinn-eòlas aig an ìre choitcheann. Chan eil an cothrom sin ann aig ìre nas àirde na sin. Anns na 10 bliadhna mu dheireadh, chan eil an t-uabhas de dh'adhartas idir air a bhith ann aig ìre àrd-sgoil.
As I said earlier, not many Gaelic-medium schools have closed over the years, but some have. I am glad that you raised the point about secondary education, because that is a huge obstacle. We lose many children who do well in Gaelic at primary, because up to fourth year in secondary school they perhaps get Gaelic only as a subject, with perhaps one other subject in Gaelic—for example, geography or history. Therefore, they have no opportunity to sit exams through the medium of Gaelic, other than to do so in Gaelic, history and geography. However, that opportunity happens only at standard grade level; it does not continue to the highers.
Is there not an outward-looking aspect to Gaelic-medium education as well? It has been suggested that people who have experienced it are better at learning other European languages later on in school, because of their acquaintance with bilingualism. I wonder whether that is an important angle to build on—even just enhancing Gaelic-medium education to the wider curriculum—by promoting Gaelic-medium education's broader advantages. Have you taken up that angle?
Tha sin fìor. Is e sin a thug air deagh chuid de na pàrantan an cuid chloinne a chur dha na sgoiltean Gàidhlig. Nuair a thòisich sinn mu 20 bliadhna air ais a' coiteachadh agus a' strì airson foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig, bha leabhran beag againn às a' Chuimrigh leis an ainm "Two Windows, Two Worlds". Rinn an leabhran sin an dearbh phuing sin, gun robh clann dà-chànanach nas comasaiche air gnothaichean fhaicinn ann an dòigh nas fharsainge.
What you say is certainly true. Many parents are well aware of the advantages of bilingualism and that is why they have opted for Gaelic-medium education for their children. When we started fighting for Gaelic-medium education 20 years ago, we had a small leaflet in Welsh entitled, "Two Windows, Two Worlds". It expressed that very point, which is that those who are bilingual are much more able to access further languages as they go on.
You say in your written submission:
A-rithist, feumaidh mi a bhith onarach agus a ràdh nach ann tric a tha duine sa chùirt co-dhiù. Tha mise air a bhith ann dà thuras nam bheatha mar fhianais—seo an treas turas agam a' toirt seachad fianais—ach is dòcha gum biodh sin na bu chudthromaiche anns an h-àiteachan far a bheil a' Ghàidhlig nas làidire, mar anns na h-eileanan.
Once again, I must be honest and say that it is not often that people with Gaelic are in the courts. I have been there twice in my life as a witness, so this is my third time. However, perhaps making representations in court in Gaelic might be important in places where Gaelic is stronger and a greater percentage of the population speak it—for example, in the Western Isles.
Could you submit a short paper on that point? If the facility existed in all courts in Scotland, it would constitute a massive upheaval. I think that you are asking for something more limited that could be applied much more easily. It would be helpful if you could provide us with a little more detail—not now, but in due course.
You also seem to be making the case that learning Gaelic might be a better means of dealing with crime than the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Act 2004 is.
Iain, you have said that you support distance learning and the use of high technology and videoconferencing. Would you be glad for that to be put into effect in distant parts of Scotland where Gaelic is not usually spoken and where there is great difficulty in getting a sufficient number of Gaelic teachers?
Tha mi a' smaoineachadh gu bheil sin air tòiseachadh mar-thà. Tha corra phròiseact ann far a bheil, mar eisimpleir, tidsear ann an Comhairle na Gaidhealtachd a' dèanamh conaltradh bhideo ri sgoilearan ann an Ìle. Chan eil mi mion-eòlach air dè cho math 's a tha sin ag obrachadh, ach tha mi a' smaoineachadh gu bheil e ag obrachadh gu math. Tha mi fhìn ag obair gu proifeiseanta ann an Oilthigh na Gaidhealtachd is nan Eilean, agus tha fhios agam gu bheil sinne ga chleachdadh gu tric aig ìre àrd-fhoghlam. Is e aois nan sgoilearan an aon dragh a bhiodh orm. Tha mi a' creidsinn gum feumadh fear-faire air choreigin a bhith ann aig aon cheann.
I think that that has already commenced and that there have been a number of projects. For example, a teacher in Highland region is involved in videoconferencing with pupils on Islay. I am not completely sure how well it works, but I know what happens at secondary and university level. I have been working at UHI, where we often use videoconferencing. My only concern relates to the age of the pupils. I suppose that someone would have to be with them and to watch them at the other end of the conference.
I return to higher education. You said earlier that, at secondary school level, interest is lost and the ability to go forward to higher education courses is missing. Is there anything in the bill that reassures you that the system could be put right? It seems to me that if you offer good courses at secondary school level, through higher still for example, that is a simple way of saying that you are putting Gaelic higher up the agenda. Providing young people with access to that level of education would be one way of encouraging and enabling them to proceed to further and higher education and to teacher training. That would be one of the most positive things that we could do. Are you satisfied that there are moves to do that, or should the committee be encouraging that to happen?
Chan eil an dà dhòigh air. An-dràsta fhèin, tha uireasbhaidh mhòr ann aig ìre àrd-sgoile. Tha sinn ann an suidheachadh neònach ann an Alba, oir tha foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig againn aig ìre bun-sgoil agus tha Gàidhlig againn anns na h-oilthighean—ann an Oilthigh na Gaidhealtachd is nan Eilean agus aig a' cholaiste làn-Ghàidhlig, Sabhal Mòr Ostaig—ach tha beàrn anns a' mheadhan. Chan eil mòran foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig aig ìre àrd-sgoil, agus tha sin gar cumail air ais gu mòr.
There are no two ways about it—there is a large gap at secondary level. We are in a strange situation in Scotland. We have Gaelic-medium education at primary level and at university and tertiary level—we have it at UHI and at Sabhal Mòr Ostaig—but there is a gap in the middle. There is not much Gaelic-medium education at secondary level and we are losing pupils at that stage. People move into other professions. Some people take courses in sports and entertainment and leisure, and have to relearn Gaelic to deal with children who have come from Gaelic-medium units to take part in sporting activities with them. The bottom line is that there is a shortage of Gaelic teachers. That is the most important issue that the committee should examine.
The shortage of teachers is a knock-on effect of the fact that we are not teaching Gaelic to the required level in secondary schools and thus are not encouraging its being taught in further and higher education. How do we solve that problem? I have a lot of sympathy with your view that one aspect we have to get right is parents' access to Gaelic-medium education for their children. After listening to the evidence, I feel that if parents do not know that they have access to such education they will not ask for it. The committee needs to find a balanced approach and to encourage Gaelic education in the crucial secondary school stage—in fourth, fifth and sixth year—and in further and higher education. We need to get more evidence on that aspect so that we can move forward.
Do you want to ask a particular question on that issue, Rosemary?
No. I simply wanted to make that comment.
Tha reachdas dìon dàta ann a-nis, agus tha sin na rud eile a tha na bhacadh. Chan eil e furasta greim fhaighinn air na pàrantan mus tèid a' chlann dhan sgoil. Nuair a thòisich Comann nam Pàrant, bha e caran furasta faighinn a-mach co mheud pàrant agus co mheud pàiste a bha a' dol dhan sgoil agus càit an robh iad. Ach an-diugh tha e uabhasach doirbh an ruighinn mus ruig iad an sgoil, agus aon uair 's gu bheil iad air an sgoil a ruighinn, mura h-eil iad ann an sgoil Ghàidhlig tha sinn air an call.
Another obstacle is that, with data protection legislation, it is not as easy to get access to parents before the children go to school. When we started Comann nam Pàrant, it was slightly easier to find out how many children were going into primary school. It is difficult to reach those pupils once they have started school. Unless they go to a Gaelic-medium school, we have lost them.
My question is similar to an earlier question. How would you approach the issue of teacher supply?
Feumaidh mi aideachadh gur e tidsear cànain a tha annam ann an colaiste. Saoilidh mise gum bu chòir dha luchd-teagaisg a tha ann an dreuchd mar-thà a bhith air an saoradh a dhol air chùrsaichean cànain. Is sin aon dòigh a bhith ga dhèanamh. Sin an dòigh a thathar a' cleachdadh ann an tìr nam Bascach, mar eisimpleir, far a bheil an Riaghaltas nàiseanta a' pàigheadh a shaoradh luchd-teagaisg a dhol air chùrsaichean cànain. An toiseach, thèid iad air chùrsaichean cànain san fharsaingeachd agus an uair sin air chùrsaichean mun chuspair shònraichte aca fhèin. Nuair a thilleas iad dhan sgoil, tha iad a' teagasg tro mheadhan na Bascais. Nan robh maoin ann airson sin, dh'fuasgladh sin a' cheist gu mòr, an dà chuid airson luchd-teagaisg bun-sgoil agus luchd-teagaisg àrd-sgoil.
I suppose that I should admit that I am a language teacher in our college. I feel that teachers in other professions should be free to take language courses. For example, the Basque language has been protected because the national Government pays for teachers to be released to take a general language course to begin with and then a language course that is specific to their own subject area. After that, the teachers return to their schools and teach in the Basque language. Setting up a fund to tackle that would provide a solution to the problem of providing primary and secondary school teachers.
Have you found that local authorities all over Scotland are willing to talk about these issues? It seems to me that the bill's proposed language plans might provide space both to enhance the provision of authorities that are making good progress on Gaelic-medium education and to help authorities that are nervous about putting their toes into the water because of the potential costs. Perhaps any deliberations should centre on trying to create a more integrated approach that takes in new technology options, short learning courses, sending teaching staff on secondment for a short period and working with Sabhal Mòr Ostaig. Indeed, such an approach might reassure local authorities that they could introduce provision that would fulfil parents' reasonable aspirations while testing certain areas that are unfamiliar. That might provide a base on which to build the development of Gaelic.
Dh'fheumadh ùghdarras a bhith aig Bòrd na Gàidhlig agus oifigeach-foghlaim is a leithid airson sin a cho-òrdanachadh. Tha fhios agam gun robh an t-oifigeach-foghlaim a bha aig Comunn na Gàidhlig uabhasach soirbheachail ann a bhith a' tarraing nan comhairlean aig an robh foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig ri chèile. Bha primary review group agus secondary review group ann, far an robhar a' cùmhnadh chosgaisean, le bhith a' foillseachadh stuth-teagaisg còmhla an àite gach comhairle bheag a bhith a' dèanamh an rud aice fhèin.
Bòrd na Gàidhlig would have to have authority in the shape of an education officer to co-ordinate such matters. For example, Comunn na Gàidhlig's education officer was successful in working with the local authorities that were involved in Gaelic-medium education and bringing them together in the primary and secondary review groups. As a result, instead of having one small authority deal with everything itself, the authorities pooled their resources and kept down the costs of publishing education material.
I agree with that. I was involved in the developments in Glasgow at a local government level. The natural inclination was to try to do something, although it was not clear what it was necessary to do; however, a couple of good examples built confidence and there is now much more coherent provision in the city than existed 10 or 15 years ago. It could be better, but Glasgow still provides a good model in Scotland. How can we create the space for people to be less nervous and defensive and more constructive and positive about the development of the language?
Ma dh'fhaodte gum b' urrainn dha na buidhnean sin cuireadh a thoirt dha na comhairlean nach eil mar-thà a' dèiligeadh le foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig na coinneamhan aca a fhrithealadh. A h-uile bliadhna, tha còmhdhail nàiseanta aig Comunn na Gàidhlig—tha e a-nis aig Bòrd na Gàidhlig—far an urrainn do riochdairean tighinn ann agus greim fhaighinn air mar a tha an suidheachadh an-dràsta.
Perhaps the relevant organisations could consider including councils who do not have Gaelic-medium education at the moment. Every year, Comunn na Gaidhlig used to have an annual congress. Bòrd na Gaidhlig will take over that role, and there will be representatives from all areas to give an overview of the current situation.
You are probably aware of the draft guidance on Gaelic-medium education that the Scottish Executive has issued. Have you formed a view on it yet? Perhaps the matter is too complex to ask for your views today. The Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill has to be read alongside the draft guidance to get the full picture. Perhaps you would be able to let us have more detailed comments about deficiencies, good things and bad things in the guidance to inform our consideration of the issue. Are you able to help us?
Tha mi a' smaoineachadh gun tàinig an litir agus an stiùireadh sin a-mach an dèidh dhuinn ar fianais sgrìobhte a dhèanamh, dìreach seachdain air ais no mar sin. Tha e againn a-nis, ach cha robh e againn nuair a sgrìobh sinn am fianais againn.
The letter and the guidance came out perhaps a week ago. We have the guidance now, but we did not have it when we submitted our written evidence.
Would you be able to give us something about it in writing, subsequent to the meeting and in your own good time? At first glance, the guidance looks to be quite a productive and helpful document. However, no doubt, on closer examination, there will be textual deficiencies and things that you will have concerns about. We would be interested to know about those, especially in so far as they relate to what the bill is trying to do.
Gu cinnteach nì sinn sin.
Certainly. We will do that.
I raised a question on the funding issue with the previous witness. Are there any funding issues on which your organisation would like to comment? I know that it is not central to your mission, but it would be unfortunate not to give you the opportunity to say something on the funding side.
Tha mi a' smaoineachadh gu bheil dà rud daonnan ann far a bheil sinn gann de dh'airgead. Tha oideachadh luchd-teagaisg a dhìth, gu h-àraidh luchd-teagaisg a tha ann an dreuchd. Tha sin uabhasach cosgail, oir tha e cosgail cuideigin a shaoradh bho obair, cuideigin eile a chur a-staigh na àite agus cosgais a' chùrsa a phàigheadh. Glè thric, feumaidh an neach a bhith a' fuireach air falbh. Is e cosgais gu math trom a tha sin. Cuideachd, tha cosgais ann a bhith ag ullachadh nan cùrsaichean sin airson luchd-teagaisg. Chaidh a ghealltainn dhuinn gum biodh cùrsa na b' fheàrr ann an 2004, ach cha do thachair sin. An aon rud a tha air tachairt, is e gu bheil e nas fhasa do mhnathan-pòsta, gu h-àraidh iadsan a tha a' fuireach mu thuath, cùrsaichean a dhèanamh aig an taigh, gun a dhol a dh'Obar Dheathain no a Ghlaschu a dh'fhuireach airson sia mìosan no mar sin.
There are always two things to consider when there is a shortage of money. First, it is expensive to release teachers from their posts and to get someone else in to cover. There is also the cost of the course and, if they are staying away from home, there are subsistence costs. The process can be very expensive.
In your submission, you talk about the Gaelic language plans. You say that not enough emphasis is placed on training and that there is a need for substantial funding. You cite, for example, the Inland Revenue as an organisation that is not covered by the bill. Is there not a danger that limited resources that should be concentrated on teacher training and on releasing people from organisations in core Gaelic-language areas to learn the language might be diverted into training for organisations that might not be as important in the pecking order?
Is e puing eile nach eil a h-uile duine ag iarraidh a bhith na thidsear. Chan urrainn dhuinn a bhith a' sparradh sin air daoine nach eil ga iarraidh. Ach, ma tha poileasaidhean Gàidhlig gu bhith aig na buidhnean sin, feumaidh daoine a bhith ann airson na poileasaidhean a chur an gnìomh. Chan eil mi a' smaoineachadh gu bheil daoine gu leòr ann airson sin a dhèanamh an-dràsta. Tha sinn a' bruidhinn air leudachadh exponential ann am fàs agus clann a' tighinn a-mach às na sgoiltean Gàidhlig. Tha sin air tachairt gu ìre le luchd-teagaisg. Tha a' chiad daoine a chaidh tro fhoghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig a-nis air ais nan luchd-teagaisg anns na bun-sgoiltean. Tha e air tòiseachadh, ach tha an cunnart sin ann. Tha mi ag aontachadh leat ach, mar a thuirt mi, chan e a h-uile duine a dh'iarras a bhith na thidsear agus a nì tidsear.
Not everybody wants to be a teacher. We cannot force people to be teachers. If organisations are going to have Gaelic policies, they will have to have people to implement the policies. If there are not enough people—and there are not at the moment—we have to talk about expanding at an exponential rate as people come out of the Gaelic-medium units. That has happened, to a degree, with teachers. We have the first primary teachers from those who went through Gaelic-medium education; they are now back in the primary schools as teachers. I agree that there is a danger, but not everybody wants to be a teacher.
You use the word "exponential". We hope that the bill will encourage and facilitate more Gaelic being spoken across a range of different areas. The problem is that we will have to find out, from the Finance Committee's report, whether the costs that are associated with the bill will be one-off costs, what the regular revenue will be for Gaelic and what rate of expansion is anticipated to meet the training needs, which will involve on-going costs as opposed to one-off costs. That is something for the committee to examine. If you have views on where the emphasis on training should be, it would be helpful for us to know them.
Nuair a tha sinn a' coimhead air fàs a' chànain, tha sinn a' coimhead air trì rudan: an àireamh de dhaoine aig a bheil a' chanan; am fàs air feadh na h-Alba, agus a bheil i ga bruidhinn ann am barrachd àiteachan; agus, an treas rud, dè cho math 's a tha an cànan a thathar a' bruidhinn, agus a bheil daoine gu tur fileanta. Glè thric, is sin far a bheil a' cheist seo a' tighinn a-staigh.
When we consider the growth of the language, we consider three issues: the number of people who have the language; the growth of the language throughout Scotland and whether it is spoken in more areas; and how well the language is spoken and whether people are fluent in it. I do not know whether those who work in the English-speaking world realise how the majority languages are doing away with the smaller languages. Not just English, but Spanish and Russian are big and important and surround us totally. It is difficult sometimes to talk about the variety of subjects that one would like to talk about because the dictionary has not been expanded to include them. As in the environment, where flowers, grasses and birds are dying out because other things are taking over, languages are dying out.
There is very much a hierarchy of objectives: the survival of the language; the encouragement of the language; and the spreading of the language.
Thug mi tarraing air an roinn phrìobhaidich, air nach eil, gu mì-fhortanach, guth idir anns a' bhile. Tha tuilleadh is tuilleadh pàirt aig an roinn phrìobhaidich nar beatha. Bha an t-uabhas dhe buidhnean leis an Riaghaltas nuair a chaidh Bile na Cuimris troimhe 20 bliadhna air ais, ach chan ann leis an Riaghaltais a tha iad an-diugh. Cuideachd, is ann leis an roinn phrìobhaidich a tha mòran rudan làitheil a tha a' bualadh air ar beatha, mar rudan co-cheangailte ri bhith dol dhan bhùth. Is e an eisimpleir a tha agam daonnan, dè a' Ghàidhlig air cornflakes. Ma tha thu a' fuireach ann an Canada, tha fios agad dè an Fhraingis air cornflakes. Faodaidh tu tionndadh na pacaid agus tha e ag innseadh dhut. Ach chan eil Gàidhlig oifigeil againn air cornflakes, oir chan eil e sgrìobhte air a' phacaid. Tha na rudan sin nar beatha làitheil fada nas cudthromaiche na còir a bhith agam seasamh ann an Cùirt an t-Seisein ann an Dùn Èideann agus cur asam fhèin.
I previously mentioned the private sector. Unfortunately, no mention at all is made of the private sector in the bill, although it has more and more of a role in our lives. Many of the organisations covered by the bill that went through in Wales 20 years ago are not government organisations now.
I have a follow-up question on priorities. Given that funding is finite, there could be a tension between providing signage in Gaelic and investing in Gaelic-medium education or courses for adult learners. What is the most important aspect of the survival of the language? Is it more important to encourage more people to speak Gaelic or to provide information in Gaelic for those who already speak it?
Mar Chomann nam Pàrant, tha sinn a' riochdachadh phàrantan. Mar sin, chanainn gur e, an toiseach, leudachadh an àireimh de chloinn a tha a' bruidhinn na Gàidhlig agus, an uair sin, an àireamh de dh'inbhich. Tha a h-uile rud ag èirigh às an sin. Ma tha gu leòr aca ann, iarraidh iad fhèin na seirbheisean sin, mar a tha air tachairt ann an dùthchannan far a bheil iad air an crìonadh a thionndadh agus far a bheil fàs ann a-nis. Mar eisimpleir, tha an ath ghinealach de dh'oileanaich anns a' Chuimrigh a-nis a' togail na strì airson achd nas làidire agus nas freagarraiche do shuidheachadh an latha an-diugh anns a' Chuimrigh.
We represent Comann nam Pàrant and our priority would be to expand the number of children who learn Gaelic. Services for people who speak Gaelic and everything else arise from that. If there are enough of them, they will ask for such services. That is what has happened in other countries that have turned round the decline of their language. For example, in Wales the next generation of university students is raising the banners for a stronger act that would be more suitable for this day and age in Wales.
On what is happening in Scotland, there could be problems if the bill appeared to imply to local authorities and other public bodies that they should spend a lot of resources on producing materials in Gaelic rather than on promoting the learning of the language. One of the issues that the Executive probably had to contemplate when it drafted the bill was how to encourage the most essential aspects of enabling the language to survive rather than get involved in what at this stage might be secondary issues, although, as you say, if more people end up learning Gaelic and more people are enthusiastic about it, there might be greater demand in future for other services to be provided in Gaelic.
Tha dà rud ann a tha ag obair còmhla: comas agus iarrtas. Mar is motha an t-iarrtas, is motha an comas a tha ann; mar as motha an comas, is motha an t-iarrtas. Far a bheil sinn ag aontachadh le prionnsabal a' phlanaidh, cuideachd, is e gu bheil e uabhasach cudthromach nach eil sinn a' struidhleadh ar cuid stòrais far nach eil feum air. Ach tha e cuideachd uabhasach cudthromach dè thachras dhan chloinn nuair a thig iad a-mach às an sgoil. Feumaidh obraichean a bhith air an cruthachadh far an urrainn dhaibh a' Ghàidhlig a dh'ionnsaich iad anns an sgoil a chur gu feum nam beatha obrach.
There are two things that work together: the ability and the demand. The greater the demand, the greater the ability; and the greater the ability, the greater the demand. We agree with the principle of the language plans, because it is important that we do not direct our resources where they are not required. What will happen to children who have learned Gaelic when they come out of school? Jobs should be created for them that enable them to use the Gaelic language that they learn in school in the workplace.
That is a helpful point at which to stop, if there are no more questions.
Meeting suspended.
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