European and External Relations Committee

Meeting date: Tuesday, April 17, 2012

Official Report 461KB pdf

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European Parliament (Petition 1058/2011)

I welcome you all back and hope that you are refreshed. Agenda item 3 concerns a petition to the European Parliament. The committee is invited to consider correspondence that we have received relating to the European Parliament and the forms of identification that can be used as proof of identification and age in Scotland. I ask committee members to have a look at the committee paper and the annexes to it. Does anyone have any comments to make?

Yes. Although I appreciate the European Union’s advice on accepting identification, the issue concerns someone who supplies alcohol and in Scotland we have stringent rules on identification in that context. First, the licence of the premises is in danger if it is perceived to be serving people who are underage. Secondly, the fact that Spain has four different means of identification other than passports and driving licences confuses everybody.

A landlord is entitled to accept or reject any form of ID if they feel uncomfortable. The issue is not simply that the ID was Spanish—even if it had been a British form of ID, the landlord may have refused it. The landlord is expected to make a personal judgment on the issue, as well. The fact that someone carries a certain document does not mean that the landlord must be satisfied with that document—they may ask for an additional document. We need to have that additional safeguard of allowing the landlord to decide whether to accept any form of ID.

The issue has arisen before in Scotland. Two individuals who were wearing burkas went into a premises and then subsequently robbed the premises because they could not be seen. Visibility is important.

Clarity in identification is also important, and when there are so many means of identification that is unhelpful to ordinary individuals. If they ask for additional information, that should be provided. ID should be clear, and passports and driving licences are clear forms of identification. Any other forms of identification border on making people make personal judgments. In this case, a landlord decided that they were not satisfied with the identification that was offered because of the individual presenting it rather than the identification itself. If the landlord had been satisfied with the individual, there would have been no need for identification.

I can see both sides of the argument, but for landlords the specific issue of establishing someone’s age is vital. Therefore, a landlord should expect clearer identification than was presented to him or her in this case.

I welcome the response that we have received from the Scottish Government, which says that it is undertaking a consultation. From what the Government says, I expect the consultation to find national identity cards acceptable as a form of ID in the future. We cannot change what has happened, but that is a good way forward. If the Government gets positive responses along those lines, I will be pleased for that to happen because it will remove any doubts. It would be good if the committee could ask the Scottish Government to keep us informed of the progress of that consultation.

The other week, I came back from abroad and the young person with whom I was travelling did not have to present a passport. All that she had to do was present her national ID card and she got through passport control and everything. That is absolutely fine, but I can understand why the bar proprietor did what he did. He has to operate within the law as it exists, not as we would like it to be.

I agree with what Helen Eadie said. Despite the fact that EU ID cards are accepted at UK border controls, they are not accepted in Scottish pubs. They are not on the list. As far as I can gather, if an individual member of staff serves someone with such a card, they are breaking the law and they have no defence against prosecution. It is perfectly fair for the landlord to defend his staff in that way, although I think that a change in the law might be needed.

I cannot see the difference between a passport and an EU identity card in terms of telling what someone’s age is. Some thought ought to go into the issue and we ought to come up with a solution that is acceptable to both sides.

There is a slight difference between an immigration officer who is trained to handle that type of ID card and a barmaid or a person who works in a pub and does not see such cards every day. The person in the pub might not be convinced of the importance of a card that is presented to them. Jamie McGrigor is absolutely right; clarity would be helpful.

The paper includes a few recommendations, one of which is that we ask the Scottish Government to keep us abreast of progress. The other is that we ask the Scottish Government to consider the petition as evidence in its consultation, and I think that we should do that. We should also inform the European Parliament Committee on Petitions. Are members happy with that?

Members indicated agreement.