Enterprise and Culture Committee, 13 Sep 2005

Meeting date: Tuesday, September 13, 2005

Official Report 292KB pdf

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St Andrew's Day Bank Holiday (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Item 2 is consideration of the St Andrew's Day Bank Holiday (Scotland) Bill. I welcome the bill's sponsor, Dennis Canavan, along with Rodger Evans from the non-Executive bills unit and Maureen Conner, who is Dennis's parliamentary assistant. I am happy for Maureen and Rodger to comment at Dennis's request at any time to help to supplement his answers or to provide additional technical information. I invite Dennis to give us an introduction to the discussion.

The purpose of my bill is to establish a national holiday on or around St Andrew's day to recognise our patron saint and to give the people of Scotland the opportunity to celebrate our national identity and our ethnic and cultural diversity. Scotland is one of the few countries in the world that does not have a national day. We are also at the bottom of the European league in respect of number of public holidays.

My bill has widespread support in the Parliament and in the country. Seventy-five MSPs from all political parties and none have expressed support. Many other expressions of support have been received from various sources, including the trade union movement, local authorities, all the major churches and other faith organisations, the Commission for Racial Equality, the Saltire Society and the St Andrew Society. I have also received messages of support from as far away as Dubai, Moscow and North America. A recent MORI opinion poll indicates that 75 per cent of Scots are in favour of the proposal. Moreover, 85 per cent of respondents to my nationwide consultation proposal and 81 per cent of respondents to the Enterprise and Culture Committee's consultation are in favour of it.

The only serious opposition to the proposal has come from certain elements within the business community, but it would be wrong to imagine that the business community is entirely opposed to it. The business community is divided, with some for, some against and some sceptical. As you might recall from last week's evidence, the Scottish Retail Consortium and the Association of Scottish Visitor Attractions are strong supporters, whereas the Confederation of British Industry, the Federation of Small Businesses and the Committee of Scottish Clearing Bankers expressed opposition or reservations. However, even those groups indicated that they would go along with the proposal, provided that the St Andrew's day holiday was a replacement for an existing holiday rather than an additional holiday.

On the matter of additional holidays, it is worth pointing out that Northern Ireland already has two additional bank holidays: one on 12 July and the other on St Patrick's day, which is also a bank holiday in the Republic of Ireland. The St Patrick's day celebration raises about €80 million for the Dublin economy alone and helps to boost Irish business and to promote Ireland internationally.

It would surely be preposterous to suggest that the St Patrick's day bank holiday is somehow bad for the Irish economy. Similarly, it would be preposterous to suggest that a St Andrew's day bank holiday would be bad for the Scottish economy. On the contrary, a St Andrew's day bank holiday would present many opportunities, particularly in retail, tourism, hospitality, leisure and recreation. The celebration of St Andrew's day would give a huge boost to Scottish business and the Scottish economy as well as helping to promote Scotland on the international stage.

That was helpful, Dennis.

I find the arguments in favour of a St Andrew's day holiday to be quite persuasive. The holiday would provide a new opportunity to celebrate Scotland as well as providing economic opportunities. I should qualify that by saying that I would prefer it if it were a replacement for another holiday at another time of the year.

I want to ask about the detail of the bill, which seems not to create a St Andrew's day holiday; rather, it is a permissive piece of legislation that permits the banks to celebrate a holiday on that day if they wish to do so. Were any other mechanisms available to you by which you could try to establish your aim of a St Andrew's day holiday? I am not convinced that your bill would achieve that aim.

As far as I know, the bill is the only mechanism that the Parliament can use to establish anything resembling a national holiday in Scotland. The power under the schedule to the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971 is devolved to the Scottish Parliament under the Scotland Act 1998. I assume, therefore, that the drafters of the 1998 act specifically wanted to give the Scottish Parliament the power to create an additional bank holiday if that were the will of the Parliament.

As I understand it, if your bill is passed by the Parliament, that does not automatically create a holiday. It will be up to public sector bodies and private sector companies to decide whether to grant a holiday on St Andrew's day. Have you had discussions with the Executive as to whether it would be likely to give a lead to the public sector if the bill became law?

You are absolutely correct in saying that the bill does not enforce a holiday. It is my understanding that the Parliament does not have the powers to enforce a holiday that would involve every workplace in Scotland closing down on a particular day. As you know, employment legislation is reserved to Westminster. However, the bill would create an additional bank holiday in Scotland.

It is correct to say that that holiday would be permissive rather than mandatory, but that is true of all bank holidays. Bank holiday legislation does not compel any workplace, including banks, to close on any given day. However, my hope is that the bill would create a climate in Scotland in which employers would get into serious negotiations with their employees about recognition of the holiday, bearing in mind that it has the potential to be not just an additional bank holiday but a national holiday. I hope that the Executive would take the lead in that.

I have had informal discussions with the First Minister about my proposal. It would be unfair of me to attempt to quote what he said in those private discussions, but I hope that the Executive could be persuaded to support my bill and, if not, to remain neutral and to give members of the Executive parties a free vote on the matter.

It remains to be seen how the Executive will react as a public sector employer. It did not indicate to me what it would do, but in view of the fact that the Scottish Parliament already gives its employees a St Andrew's day holiday, I hope that the Executive will follow suit. Of course, there would always be a need for certain essential and emergency workers to work on that day, as on all bank holidays.

Thank you, that was helpful. I think that you would agree that the point is crucial. It is one thing for the Parliament to pass the bill; it is another whether the legislation then achieves your objective of a public holiday.

We can assume that when Murdo Fraser takes the St Andrew's day holiday, he substitutes it for another one during the year.

I work on all my holidays, convener.

My questions follow on from many of the points that Murdo Fraser was pursuing. Given what you have just said, Dennis, is it not the reality that even if we wanted to—and I am not sure about the desirability of it—neither this Parliament nor any other has the levers to enforce a national holiday? Whichever route we take, we still need to win hearts and minds for the holiday to happen in practice. Why then have you not taken an entirely hearts-and-minds approach? For example, would it not be in the Parliament's gift to work in concert with the Executive, the wider business community and other employers in the public sector to reach a point of agreement or—dare I use the word—consensus that it would be desirable to move towards the objective of having a holiday, so that people are really buying into it as opposed to feeling that there is an element of compulsion? There is a paradox, because the bill would not actually compel people, so taking the legislative route that you propose feels like the worst of all worlds when there might be shared objectives towards which people could work.

I accept that there is a need to win hearts and minds, which is precisely why I conducted an extensive nationwide consultation even before my bill was lodged. The consultation showed that 85 per cent of people are in favour. Moreover, as I indicated earlier, 81 per cent of respondents to the committee's consultation are in favour and the MORI opinion poll indicated that 75 per cent are in favour. Perhaps that is not an absolute consensus, but it is a massive majority of the people of Scotland, including those within the business community. I quoted Lord Macfarlane last week and we heard from the Scottish Retail Consortium and the Association of Scottish Visitor Attractions—they all spoke in favour of the proposal.

There will be few occasions when the Parliament passes legislation with 100 per cent of the people's support, but all the evidence that the committee and I have is that the overwhelming majority of people in the country are in favour of the proposal. I am still working hard to persuade the doubters and opponents of the proposal in the business community to see it as a business opportunity rather than just to consider the negative aspects.

You and those who work with you are to be applauded for promoting the debate, which undoubtedly has engaged a great number of people. However, is it not the case that the body of opinion and agreement—the consensus, as you call it, or the majority view—centres on the end and not the means? Let us say that the Parliament, either at this stage or later in the process, does not support the bill as proposed. Members may say that they do not believe that the bill is an appropriate and effective means of moving forward. If that were to happen, do you have a plan B? How can the body of support be harnessed in some way—short of legislation, that is—to take forward the principle?

I do not see how the objective can be achieved without legislation. We would have to go round every employer in the country and try to persuade them to get into negotiations with their employees. As I said, employment legislation is reserved to Westminster. The schedule to the 1971 act is the only instrument available to the Parliament to bring about anything resembling the creation of a nationwide holiday. I agree that that route does not enforce the holiday, but it would create a mood throughout the country whereby, in the fullness of time, the holiday would become more and more recognised and Scotland would have a national day of celebration.

So if the bill were to fall, would that be an end to the process as far as you were concerned or could the idea and objective be pursued by another route?

It would not be the end of the story, by any means. Like Robert the Bruce and the spider, I would have to try, try and try again. I see no other legislative means available to the Parliament to bring about the objective that we share.

I am somewhat persuaded of the merits of your suggestion, Dennis, but I have two questions. First, I have a bit of a daft-laddie question. In Russia or Greece, for example, is St Andrew's day on a day other than 30 November? One of the good things about St Patrick's day is the time of year when it falls. It is a great time of year for tourists. I appreciate that the counter-argument on shoulder months can also be made.

I know of nowhere in the world where St Andrew's day is celebrated on a day other than 30 November. For centuries, 30 November has been recognised in Scotland and throughout the world as St Andrew's day.

Some people use the wrong-time-of-year argument and I accept that November is a dreich month by any measure of the imagination for having a holiday. However, the tourism industry describes it as a shoulder or slack period when tourism is not exactly at a peak. The date could therefore be an advantage for that sector and could give it a boost. Indeed, it could give the whole population a boost by providing us with something to celebrate in dreich November. I do not accept the wrong-time-of-year argument. As the Scottish Trades Union Congress said last week, there are no bank holidays between August and Christmas.

Secondly, what is your reaction to the point that was made to us last week—certainly in the written evidence and to some extent in the oral evidence—that the introduction of the bank holiday would stand in the way of cheque transactions, direct debits, people being paid at certain times of the month and all that sort of thing?

That criticism could be made of any bank holiday and not only a St Andrew's day bank holiday. Surely if the banks and their customers can overcome whatever difficulties arise on other bank holidays, they can do so on a St Andrew's day bank holiday. Nowadays, many people are into online and telephone banking, which are 24-hour services. I suspect that the inconvenience to customers during a bank holiday nowadays is much less than it was when bank holidays were created in the 19th century.

To what extent was the positive response—which was considerable—that you and the committee received to the proposal influenced by people's understandable desire to have an extra day's holiday in the year? Do you think that people did not appreciate that the proposed holiday might have consequences for them?

I think that people realised from the consultation document that I issued that Scotland is right at the bottom of the European league for the number of public holidays. On that ground, there is a strong case for saying that employees in Scotland should have an additional day's holiday.

There is an extra dimension to the argument for having a holiday on St Andrew's day. That day should be a national day on which Scots can celebrate their Scottishness and their internationalism, which would help to put Scotland on the international stage. It is rather sad—and an indictment of the Scottish cringe—that St Andrew's day is more celebrated in places such as Canada, the United States, New Zealand and Australia than it is in Scotland. Expatriate Scots come back here and say that they have a great dinner, party, concert, cultural activity or something else every St Andrew's day, but in comparison there is nothing here. We ought to show a lead in trying to put Scotland on the international stage and in celebrating our national identity and internationalism.

That gives rise to two related questions. First, why do we need a holiday to do such things? The second question follows from the first. Can we not celebrate St Andrew's day in the same way as we celebrate Burns, for example? Burns is celebrated all over the world, including in this country—sometimes there seem to be celebrations on all the 10 days around Burns night—without a national holiday being created.

I do not want to get into arguments about St Andrew's day versus Burns day. However, Robert Burns would recognise that, for centuries before he was born, St Andrew was the patron saint of Scotland, as he still is. St Andrew is a unifying figure throughout Scotland.

We need a holiday because, if we want a national and international celebration, the declaration of a holiday would show that we were serious about such a celebration. It is obvious that, if everybody simply went to work as they normally do on St Andrew's day, that would decrease the opportunities for celebrating that day and for organising cultural, sporting or other events to mark it.

But you agree that Burns is adequately and widely celebrated without people having a holiday that is either tacitly or overtly supported by the Scottish Parliament or the Scottish Executive.

I would not say that Burns day is adequately celebrated—there should be more opportunities for celebrating it. Having a holiday on St Andrew's day would give us many more opportunities to celebrate that day and Scotland's identity and to project ourselves on the international stage. Many economic and cultural benefits would flow from that.

I have a final question, on an altogether different issue. In last week's evidence, we heard about the potential costs to industry and business as well as the financial benefits that could accrue. You mentioned Ireland's income from St Patrick's day. Do you have any figure for the costs to industry of the shutdown on St Patrick's day?

I do not have any accurate figures for that, but I am informed that the Irish Government provided seed funding of €2.5 million for the St Patrick's day festival. Obviously, there are opportunities for public expenditure to be regarded as public investment rather than as money that is just going down a black hole. If the Scottish Executive and/or local authorities were to invest in St Andrew's day celebrations as the Irish do for St Patrick's day celebrations, I believe that great benefits would flow into the Scottish economy and that the advantages would far outweigh the disadvantages, as the Scottish Retail Consortium, for one, pointed out at last week's meeting.

My question related rather to the wider costs to industry of closing down for a holiday. Perhaps, convener, we can ascertain whether such figures are available so that we can make a comparison.

For me, there are two aspects to the bill. The first is the social aspect of providing an extra day's holiday, from which many workers would benefit. Given our poor level of bank holidays and annual holidays compared to our European neighbours, I think that that is a desirable objective from a social policy viewpoint.

The second aspect is the cultural element, which I want to focus on by picking up on the issue of hearts and minds, to which Susan Deacon referred. Clearly, if we passed the bill, the potential benefits of a St Andrew's day holiday would not be realised without ensuring that there was a public programme to promote the day as a holiday and a cultural event that would attract people to Scotland. Have you had any discussions with organisations such as VisitScotland and EventScotland, or with the First Minister or the Executive, about whether they have considered the work that they could undertake to promote the cultural element of a St Andrew's day holiday?

I have had informal discussions with people from VisitScotland and EventScotland. From what I can gather, there is considerable support for my proposal from their contacts. The Executive at this stage has not given any indication of its view, but I hope to be able to persuade it to come on board, because I think that a St Andrew's day holiday would be a tremendous opportunity to promote Scottish culture at home and abroad.

I wonder whether I could—

I am sorry, but I must intervene because I am told that the broadcasting system is not functioning properly. I must suspend the meeting until broadcasting can recommence.

Meeting suspended.

On resuming—

The good news is that the broadcasting system has been switched on again. Susan Deacon has another question, after which I will call Shiona Baird.

I was keen to ask Dennis Canavan to comment on the schools issue that I raised at last week's committee meeting. If one reason for the bill is to establish something that looks and feels like a national holiday and enables people to spend more time with their families, achieving some alignment with school holidays will be critical.

You raise an important point, because we want the children of Scotland, too, to join in the celebration of St Andrew's day. It is interesting to note that at least three local authorities—Clackmannanshire, Dumfries and Galloway and Angus Councils—recognise St Andrew's day by giving their employees and schoolchildren a holiday on or around that day. I understand that when St Andrew's day falls mid-week, for example, Dumfries and Galloway and Angus Councils manage to co-ordinate teachers' in-service days so that children are off not just for one day, but for perhaps two or three days to celebrate St Andrew's day.

If and when my bill becomes law, I hope that the Scottish Executive will take a lead by sending a circular to ask all local education authorities to try to ensure that children have the opportunity to celebrate St Andrew's day by having a holiday, for example. That could be done within the existing number of statutory minimum openings. The creation of an additional school holiday might bring us up against educationists and require a change in education legislation. However, even within the statutory number of school openings, a reorganisation could be made by dropping a local holiday to celebrate St Andrew's day instead, for example.

It strikes me that that could be done without legislation, which leads me to my second question. Is the bill capable of amendment at stage 2—should that be Parliament's wish—to decouple the issues of the additional day and the designation of St Andrew's day as a national bank holiday? What would be your views if that were to be the outcome?

The bill is a simple two-section bill. It can be amended in several ways, including that which you suggest. At stage 2 or stage 3, it would be open to any member of the committee or the Parliament to lodge an appropriate amendment. If they did that, I would examine what I considered to be the merits or otherwise of the amendment and perhaps take on board the views of the member or members who had lodged the amendment. My mind is not closed on some aspects and I am willing to consider constructive amendments.

The witnesses from whom we heard last week supported the proposed bank holiday, but their strong preference was for the holiday to be allocated to a Monday to comprise part of a long weekend. Would it detract from the aim of celebrating our national identity and our nation's patron saint if the holiday did not fall on 30 November?

Personally, I believe that it would not detract from that aim completely. However, in response to the consultation on the bill, some church representatives, the St Andrew Society and the Saltire Society indicated a strong preference for the holiday to be on 30 November. I am prepared to consider the issue. The bill currently provides that the holiday will fall on

"30th November, if it is not a Saturday or Sunday or, if it is a Saturday or Sunday, the first Monday following that day."

The bill is so drafted because the majority of respondents to the consultation expressed that preference. However, I accept that the majority of witnesses who gave evidence last week seemed to be in favour of always having the holiday on a Monday. If that is the majority view of the committee or of the Parliament after the full debate, the bill can easily be amended to accommodate that.

Is it not Ireland's experience that, although many of the things that have been suggested could happen on our national day without legislation, such things just do not happen without the symbolism of having the day made into a bank holiday?

Absolutely. A national day needs some statutory basis. It is no use a minister or community leader merely encouraging people to close down their workplaces on a particular day to celebrate our national identity. If a Government or Parliament is serious about creating a national holiday to celebrate national identity, the day must have some statutory basis.

The Irish experience is that St Patrick's day generates some €80 million, I think, inside Ireland alone—

Inside Dublin.

The Irish also benefit hugely from what happens elsewhere—especially in America, where the president holds a special St Patrick's day celebration in the White House. Have you asked George Bush whether he would do the same for St Andrew's day?

I am not so sure that George Bush would be the best person to ask.

However, seriously, the transatlantic celebrations of St Patrick's day have provided Ireland with great advantages, for both the advancement of the peace process and trade and the economy in general. I am informed that the Republic of Ireland has started only recently, for the first time in its history, to export more to the United States than it does to the United Kingdom. In part, that is due to the transatlantic connections that are forged and strengthened through the celebration of St Patrick's day on both sides of the Atlantic.

I thank Dennis Canavan for his helpful evidence. As he knows, the Parliamentary Bureau has given us a timetable—which was agreed to by the Parliament—that requires us to have our stage 1 report ready no later than 6 October.