Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill
I reconvene the meeting. The second item on the agenda is an evidence-taking session on a legislative consent motion on the UK Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill.
I am pleased to welcome to the meeting Fiona Hyslop, the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning; Laura Barjonas, team leader, higher education and learner support division; and Dr Audrey MacDougall, head of the lifelong learning analytical services unit.
I believe that the cabinet secretary would like to make an opening statement.
Thank you, convener. I am grateful for this opportunity to speak in support of the legislative consent memorandum for the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill, which was introduced at Westminster on 5 February 2009 and the majority of which applies only to England.
Among other things, the bill seeks to introduce the right for employees to request time off for training. After a consultation in Scotland, in which the clear majority of respondents supported the same right, I wrote to John Denham, Secretary of State for Innovation, Universities and Skills to request that it be extended to employees in Scotland. The right will be modelled on the existing right to request flexible working and will be introduced by amending the Employment Rights Act 1996. As that matter is reserved, it does not require an LCM.
Helping individuals and Scotland's businesses during the current economic downturn lies at the heart of our economic recovery programme, and training that brings benefits to both individuals and businesses will ensure that Scottish businesses survive the downturn better and can thrive when the economy improves. The Government is committed to ensuring that all Scots have the opportunity to achieve their full potential, but we know that, although the majority of employees receive training, 35 per cent of employees received none in the previous 12 months.
The right to request time off to train means that all employees will have a statutory right to a meaningful discussion on training with their employers. I have proactively secured this right for employees in Scotland and will continue to work closely with the UK Government to develop guidance for employers and employees to support the introduction of the right in 2010.
We would like two areas of the bill to be applied to matters that are devolved to the Scottish Government. First, we wish to ensure that, with the abolition of the Learning and Skills Council in England, the Scottish ministers retain their current authority over career development loans.
The Learning and Skills Council—which will be replaced by two new bodies: the skills funding agency and the young people's funding agency—currently manages career development loans throughout the UK. The Scottish ministers have the authority to instruct the council on the administration of CDLs in Scotland if we wish to shape such loans to particular Scottish circumstances. Given that, under the UK bill, the skills funding agency will assume responsibility for managing the career development loan scheme, we wish to retain the authority to instruct the new agency on CDL arrangements as they affect Scottish learners.
Today, I will announce an expansion of the CDL scheme in Scotland in line with similar changes proposed in England. The maximum loan available will increase from £8,000 to £10,000, and students will be able to use it to cover up to 100 per cent of their course fees compared with 80 per cent at present.
Secondly, the Scottish ministers wish to retain the ability to request the extension to Scotland of services developed through the managing information across partners programme. Under the UK bill, the skills funding agency and the young people's funding agency will both be allowed to extend services on data sharing on learners to Scotland at the request of the Scottish ministers.
To ensure that we can effectively measure and monitor outcomes, the Government is committed to developing a shared intelligence network across all relevant Scottish education bodies, including Skills Development Scotland, the Scottish Further and Higher Education Funding Council and the Scottish Qualifications Authority. Work is already under way, and we are exploring better ways of sharing learner information in Scotland and ways of providing learners with a comprehensive record of their achievements. Given that learners and qualifications cross geographical boundaries within the UK, we will also need to agree a process for cross-border flows. At this stage, it might be beneficial for learners in Scotland and elsewhere in the UK if the Scottish ministers can extend to Scotland certain services or components of such services.
I hope the committee will support our view that that the LCM is necessary, as it will ensure that Scottish learners benefit from an expanded career development loan scheme and that the Scottish ministers retain the ability to shape the scheme to suit the needs of Scotland. Moreover, ensuring that learners' achievements and other relevant information can be recognised across the UK might reduce bureaucracy and open up more opportunities for individuals across the UK.
I am aware that I have mentioned a plethora of different agencies and organisations, but I hope that members see the sense in the proposals.
I understand that there has been a bit of debate in the House of Commons on the definition of apprenticeships in clauses 1 to 38 of the bill. Can you assure us that that definition will not impact on any definition that we might formulate in Scotland?
Remember that skills policy is devolved to Scotland, so the clauses about skills in the UK bill refer only to England and definitions on apprenticeships in Scotland are governed by Scottish bodies. We retain control of definitions and the approval of any new ones—for example, the life sciences one that is due shortly. Control over that definition will be retained in Scotland; the majority of the bill applies only to England.
I think that I am right in saying that in England and Wales the bill is for 16 to 18-year-olds. Would that apply in Scotland?
One of the main proposals in the bill is to extend compulsory education to 18, but that applies only to England. Indeed, the same proposal for Scotland has been rejected by this Government, and we have put forward our programme for 16+ learning choices, which is already in place, whereas compulsory education to the age of 18 in England will not come in for a number of years. That part of the bill, like most of it, applies only to England—very little applies to Scotland.
The points of reference for this debate are the points to which I referred earlier, which are very technical.
Is that a categorical assurance that neither the definition nor the age range would have any implications whatever for Scotland?
Yes.
Do you see any merit in adopting the statutory right to apprenticeships? Did you consider that option?
There is obviously a different experience of apprenticeships in England and Scotland. Scotland is far ahead in the number of apprenticeships and we have far better completion rates. There can be a right to an apprenticeship, but it might be a false promise to guarantee an apprenticeship unless you can guarantee the job that goes with it. The issue is whether, through legislation, you can make it compulsory for employers to take on employees. That is not necessarily what is in the measures proposed in England, where people can do apprenticeships without having a job.
There are some concerns about the quality of English apprenticeships compared with Scottish ones—that perhaps relates to what Ms Smith asked about. It is important to maintain the quality of our apprenticeships: we have better completion rates and we must retain them. The right to request time off to train is in a UK bill because it is an employment rather than a skills issue.
I accept the cabinet secretary's answer, but I am not sure that I entirely follow the logic, given that we train all our teachers but do not guarantee them a job.
That concludes our questions to the cabinet secretary. Thank you for your attendance. The committee will be suspended briefly to allow the cabinet secretary and her officials to leave.
Meeting suspended.
On resuming—
Item 3 on the agenda is the legislative consent memorandum. I should point out that I previously referred to it as a motion—I want to correct my inaccuracy.
The committee is now required to report to the Parliament on the LCM. Such a report would usually include any comments on the merits of the policy, justification for the LCM mechanism being used, any comment on the draft motion and a clear recommendation to the Parliament on whether to give consent. However, the committee need not make such a recommendation if it decides that it is not appropriate. Do members wish to make any points about the committee's report to the Parliament on the LCM?
In the interests of committee unity, I will restrict myself to saying that we should agree to it.
I am grateful to you for so carefully considering the interests of committee unity on this occasion.
Do we agree that it is appropriate that we report to the Parliament to indicate our support for the LCM?
Members indicated agreement.