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Chamber and committees

Finance Committee, 27 Jan 2004

Meeting date: Tuesday, January 27, 2004


Contents


Items in Private

The final agenda item is to consider whether to deal with the draft reports on the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Bill and on the Local Governance (Scotland) Bill in private at our next meeting. I propose that we agree to do that.

Fergus Ewing:

The Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Bill has been correctly described as the Executive's main piece of legislation. In our work on the financial memorandum, the bill has been the subject of a great deal of criticism from all sorts of organisations. We should be mature enough to have a discussion about our draft report in public, so that all those who voluntarily submitted evidence to assist us in our efforts will be able to see the arguments that we adduce and the conclusions that we reach in our report on the Executive's flagship policy.

On every previous occasion on which I have made such arguments, the contrary view has been taken by the Executive parties' members and, if I am not mistaken, by the Conservative member on some occasions. If I am mistaken about that, I apologise. On all those occasions, Executive parties' members have shown marked reluctance to discuss the matter: there has simply been a wall of silence. If, as I suspect will be the case, the Executive members do not agree with me this morning, I hope that they will say why.

John Swinburne:

Personally, I object to anything being done in private. I would need people to explain to me why our discussion on the bill in question should be held in private. I do not see anything in the make-up of the bill that might mean that we will damage the economy or cause a terrible blip such that anything major will happen. The bill is a bit of an artificial flagship policy for the Executive. There are more important things in life than antisocial behaviour—believe you me. Why should we discuss the matter in private rather than discuss it openly?

Kate Maclean (Dundee West) (Lab):

I want to respond to Fergus Ewing's point. Previously in this committee, I have said why I think that draft reports in particular should be discussed in private, but I will reiterate the point. I think that we have far more chance of reaching consensus on a report if we discuss the draft report in private. The evidence-taking sessions have been in public and the report will be published, so there is nothing secretive about having the discussions in private. It avoids the temptation that some people might have to grandstand for the press. We will end up reaching far better decisions and making much better legislation if we have that particular discussion in private. I am not saying that there should be a general rule that we always discuss such items in private. Each case should be taken on its merit. However, with regard to the two pieces of legislation under discussion, I cannot see why we should not have the discussions in private.

Mr Brocklebank:

I, too, have thought that it is better to consider the cases on their merits and I have voted different ways on different occasions.

I am not totally persuaded by Kate Maclean that we should always strive for consensus. Sometimes, it is rather better to air matters and to disagree about them. I am not sure that better legislation always comes from being consensual. To that extent, I would like to hear arguments why elements of the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Bill should be considered in private. Like John Swinburne and Fergus Ewing, I think that we should normally be perfectly happy for our work and discussions to be conducted in public unless there are good reasons to do otherwise. If I am convinced that there are good reasons for holding our discussion of a bill in private, I will vote that way, but I do not think that there are in this case.

Jim Mather:

In the interests of doing the best possible job and of maintaining the credibility of the Finance Committee and Parliament, it would be useful to take this opportunity to show the Finance Committee being genuinely robust and to demonstrate that we are taking full cognisance of the evidence that all the various groups have submitted. That would prove that the scrutiny and the report generation is robust and that—hopefully—the report will be worth reading.

The Convener:

Anyone who has read the reports on financial memoranda that have been produced by the Finance Committee or has seen the level of inquisition that has taken place during the evidence-taking sessions will be in no doubt that we take the scrutiny process extremely seriously. In the stage 1 reports that have been produced so far, the Finance Committee's reports have often been the key elements that subject committees have highlighted as having been important in relation to their scrutiny of the legislation.

The exercise that we are engaged in is a process of technical analysis of the financial memoranda of bills. We are not concerned with the policy thrust and sometimes I have some difficulty in reining in members who start to stray into policy areas. That is not our job; that is the job of the subject committees. Important issues arise from our consideration both of the Local Governance (Scotland) Bill and the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Bill and it is important that the Finance Committee do the most robust job it can do. Executive and non-Executive members want to share in that process. The process by which we reach consensus on a report is important to the way in which we conduct ourselves and to the credibility and substance of our reports, which have previously been hard-hitting and will, I anticipate, continue to be so. We have nothing to be ashamed of in relation to how we have conducted ourselves. Probably the worst time for us to move into open session to discuss our draft reports is in relation to bills that deal with controversial policies because, as Kate Maclean said, the temptation will be for members to grandstand on policy issues when our job is to scrutinise the financial statements of the Executive and to hold it fully to account, which I believe we have done.

I think that we have to move to a vote. I think that Fergus Ewing had no objection to our consideration of the Local Governance (Scotland) Bill's being taken in private—

That is not correct. I do not understand why that should be discussed in private, either. I entirely disagree with the arguments that you have advanced.

In that case, I suggest that we vote on my proposal that we deal with the Local Governance (Scotland) Bill and the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Bill in private at—

Should not we vote on the bills individually?

I sought to discover whether you wanted to take them together or separately. Do you want to vote twice, Fergus?

I think that that would be correct. For all I know, Ted Brocklebank might take a different view about the Local Governance (Scotland) Bill: he has not opined on it.

Procedurally, Fergus, you are absolutely correct.

The question is that we take the draft report on the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Bill in private at our next meeting. Are we all agreed?

Members:

No.

There will be a division.

For

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Purvis, Mr Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)

Against

Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)

The Convener:

The result of the division is: For 5, Against 4, Abstentions 0. We will discuss the draft report on the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Bill in private.

The next question is that we discuss the draft report on the Local Governance (Scotland) Bill in private at our next meeting. Are we all agreed?

Members:

No.

There will be a division.

For

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Purvis, Mr Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)

Against

Brocklebank, Mr Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Swinburne, John (Central Scotland) (SSCUP)

The result of the division is: For 5, Against 4, Abstentions 0. We will discuss the draft report on the Local Governance (Scotland) Bill in private.

Out of interest, could the clerks provide us with information about how many divisions have taken place in other committees and where this committee stands in relation to other committees in this regard?

I am sure that that can be looked into.

I thank members for their attendance.

Meeting closed at 12:26.