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Chamber and committees

Finance Committee, 26 Apr 2005

Meeting date: Tuesday, April 26, 2005


Contents


Infrastructure Investment Plan

The Convener:

Agenda item 5 concerns the infrastructure investment plan. Last week, we took evidence on the plan from the Minister for Finance and Public Service Reform; this week, I am pleased to welcome the Minister for Transport, Nicol Stephen, to the committee. With the minister are: John Ewing, head of the transport group; John Howison, head of the trunk roads design and construction division; Damian Sharp, head of the public transport major infrastructure team; and Claire Dunbar-Jubb, head of the finance and business planning team. Officials have very long titles in the transport division.

I invite the minister to make an opening statement, after which we will move on to questions.

The Minister for Transport (Nicol Stephen):

I thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss the Executive's infrastructure investment plan. In 2005-06 we will, for the first time, spend more than £1 billion of our departmental budget on transport. That funding will increase to almost £1.4 billion by 2007-08 and will be used in part to fulfil the commitments in the transport capital programme. Of the total budget, 70 per cent will be directed at improving public transport over the period of the transport long-term investment plan, at tackling congestion and at promoting more sustainable transport.

The major infrastructure projects that the Scottish Executive currently supports were published last year in the 2004 transport white paper "Scotland's transport future" and have also been included in the infrastructure investment plan. They are our flagship projects, which, once they have been driven forward to completion, will make a significant difference to Scottish businesses, people and communities. For example, the Edinburgh and Glasgow airport rail links will be good for travellers and business and will help us to achieve our target of growing our economy, and the Airdrie to Bathgate rail link will help commuters to get to work and will provide new journey opportunities. Our targeted roads investment—for completion of the motorway infrastructure in Scotland and for our trunk road improvements—will improve traffic flow in the central belt, reduce congestion and significantly improve safety.

We are determined to provide high-quality transport that will strengthen Scotland's economy and support all our communities. The major increase in transport investment underlines the importance that we attach to transport's role in growing Scotland's economy and in providing greater prosperity.

When last I appeared before the committee with other ministers as part of the review on cross-cutting expenditure in December 2004, I was asked to comment on the decision-making process by which investment in transport projects is prioritised. I mentioned then that we would be developing our national transport strategy over the following 12 months to ensure that we would have a strong framework for transport policy decisions for all parts of Scotland over the next decade. Work on that strategy is under way and I am happy to undertake to keep Parliament and the committee informed and involved as the strategy develops over the next year. I have consistently said that that process will be heavily informed by public consultation; discussion with individual MSPs will form an important part of that. The national transport strategy will set the context for our strategic projects review, which is due to start by 2007. That will be the mechanism by which we make major investment decisions beyond the period of our current investment plan.

I also said in December that the Transport (Scotland) Bill would require the new statutory regional transport partnerships to develop regional transport strategies that will tie in with the national objectives and with the plan that will be set out in the national transport strategy. Progress on those matters has been good: work has commenced on the planning that is necessary to support the production of a national integrated transport strategy and we are on the way to creating a national transport agency to improve central Government's delivery of transport. However, national changes are not enough on their own; we need to get things right regionally and locally, which is the reason for the Transport (Scotland) Bill's proposals on regional transport partnerships. I will be debating those proposals again at the Local Government and Transport Committee this afternoon.

The national transport strategy will underpin the work that regional transport partnerships will do, but there will also be funding for the partnerships. We intend to allocate £35 million a year to the regional transport partnerships so that they can deliver capital projects that have not received support and funding in the past. That will provide a good opportunity to make progress on projects that are of major regional or strategic significance.

In short, we are providing the support structures—the national strategy, regional strategies, and improved delivery arrangements through the national agency and regional transport partnerships—to ensure that we achieve our objectives. The private bills for Edinburgh's tramlines 1 and 2 were introduced to Parliament on 29 January and are currently proceeding through consideration stage. The Waverley Railway (Scotland) Bill was introduced on 11 September 2003. Its preliminary stage hearings have yet to be completed, and an additional hearing by the Waverley Railway (Scotland) Bill Committee is due to take place this week.

Trunk road projects are promoted through local statutory instruments, rather than through the private bill parliamentary process. Promotion has now been completed for the M74 extension and is making progress for the improvements to the M80, for which a public local inquiry has been arranged for autumn this year. We are well placed to progress efficiently to the construction stages, in line with our plans.

The IIP that we are discussing today does not include additional funding that will be added to the transport budget to support the increased functions that the Executive will assume as a result of the United Kingdom Government's review of the structure and organisation of the rail industry, which is an important new development. The outcome for Scotland of the review is that greater responsibility for rail within Scotland will be devolved to the Scottish Executive, which will in the future be responsible for all aspects of the Scottish passenger rail franchise and for the specification and funding of rail infrastructure in Scotland. Those new responsibilities will be transferred under the Railways Act 2005 and will be accompanied by a budget transfer of about £325 million, which gives us a real opportunity not only to take responsibility for projects in Scotland, but to drive forward and ensure delivery of some of the long-delayed projects that have caused much frustration and of which committee members will be aware from local experience.

Together, the new rail responsibilities, our responsibilities for the trunk roads and motorways network and our responsibilities for investing in the flagship public transport projects to which I have referred constitute a significant challenge for the transport division, but we are determined to ensure that we deliver on that challenge.

The Convener:

You will have received our report on economic growth. We are waiting for an official reply to that from—I presume—your colleague Tom McCabe, but we hope that it will be a co-ordinated reply from all the ministerial departments to what we had to say in the report. We were particularly concerned about co-ordination of investment at spatial level, particularly regional and conurbation levels. To what extent are the transport projects that are listed in the IIP integrated with strategies for housing, renewal and business growth? What evidence is there to support the argument that they are?

Nicol Stephen:

Better integrated planning and transport is important for Scotland and we have not yet achieved the required level of integration and co-ordinated partnership working. Transport is vital in terms of planning for future housing and business or industrial developments, so the review of planning will, I hope, lead to improvements from a planning perspective. However, from a transport perspective, the lack of a national transport strategy or co-ordinated regional transport strategies has been a weakness, so it is good that we are making progress in those areas.

At local authority level, it is clear that, if a development impacts on a trunk road, we—as the trunk road authority—will be asked for comments. There are opportunities to ensure that transport is appropriately considered through community planning and through the work that will be done on local plans and city region plans. However, on green transport plans, for example, delivery is patchy and is at different stages in different parts of the country.

If the committee wants support for the view that more needs to be done in transport, it has my agreement. Obviously, transport has always had a role in planning, and comment on transport issues has always been asked for. However, transport has not been considered in a fundamental way early enough when we have considered future development proposals for ambitious projects in Scotland. That should change; we should think far more about the public transport impacts of any new developments. That applies not just to industrial or housing developments, but to reconfiguration of services such as health services.

The Convener:

We are looking to move beyond the aspirational; we want to move from "This is what we ought to do" to "This is what we plan to do." That has been done in the context of the central Scotland corridor study, which was a multi-modal approach that examined options and provided at least a basis for making decisions. Why has that not been done elsewhere?

John Ewing (Scottish Executive Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Department):

There has been an element of catch-up in some of the current programme. The central Scotland corridor study is a good example of a study in which we were able to draw on local planning data and to work closely with local authorities to identify strategic needs along that particular section of road. Particular projects flowed from that, so it is the kind of model that we want to develop and grow.

Similarly, the proposals for the Aberdeen western peripheral route flowed from local authorities' concerns about how to achieve economic regeneration in that part of the country. The project was a response to that need. In developing specific proposals, we try to relate to and respond to what local authorities and other partners say about the needs of their areas. The national transport strategy will provide us with a more coherent and cohesive framework to do that. We are improving in this regard.

How do you, for example, assess competing road and rail projects? I know that there is a formal mechanism, but I would like the panel to explain how a decision is made, such as, for example, that project X is in but project Y is out.

Nicol Stephen:

The Scottish transport appraisal guidance approach—the STAG approach—is relatively new but is widely accepted as being a major step forward in that we examine the key factors that are associated with a particular project. In that process, consideration is not specific to any single mode of transport; we consider a variety of options for tackling a particular problem and we try to find which option will deliver the best results. As the convener noted, that approach was taken in the central Scotland corridor study, and it will be taken in considering the possibility of dualling a section of road from Inverness to Inverness airport. For that project, I have made it clear that the appraisal should focus not only on the road, but on public transport and a range of associated issues. In the past we would not have done that; we would simply have looked at a single issue or approach.

Perhaps John Howison wants to comment from a roads perspective. There are many demands for road improvements in Scotland and we are now trying to take a broader approach and to consider all the issues—trunk roads, public transport and environmental and safety issues—within the context of STAG.

John Howison (Scottish Executive Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Department):

Our roads programme consists of various elements. One of the more visible elements is completion of the Scottish motorway network. On that, the planning parameters are built in through the traffic models that are used to help us to understand changes in traffic patterns. We are also considering measures such as route action plans, whereby we propose to improve some of our long-distance single carriageway routes. That will involve upgrading the parts of the network that do not have very high traffic levels but which are the communication points that connect remote parts of Scotland to the central area. Again, it is a matter of examining current traffic requirements and assessing how those will develop in line with authorities' aspirations for the future.

The Convener:

I have a difficulty with that. The Treasury's "Green Book: Appraisal and Evaluation in Central Government" guidance, which is based on 60 years of use, is used to decide whether a project is in or out. Some of the projects on the list of priorities seem to barely stagger through even that assessment. How is it that systematic decisions based on priorities in, say, Edinburgh or Glasgow can be made in a realistic timeframe? How does that work through into policy? It is not clear to anybody how the process works—certainly not to members of the committee who have considered it.

John Ewing:

The selection of any set of projects is a complex process. An economic appraisal is made and the "Green Book" is looked at, which provides one set of parameters and gives one set of decision points or factors to take into account. However, one must also take into account factors such as the contribution to accessibility, to safety, to the environment and generally to better integration of the Scottish transport network. One has also to look at the cost of a particular project; a project or idea might score very highly, but would not be affordable in a realistic timeframe. Other issues might also affect the deliverability of a project. A number of factors must be weighed up in addition to the "Green Book" conclusion. At the end of the day, it is a political decision about priorities and which projects should proceed.

The Convener:

From the point of view of a scrutinising committee such as this one, that explanation could justify any decision, however irrational. Although I am sure that no irrational decisions have been made, unless there is a net present value figure or something of that nature that suggests, for example, that project A clearly passes the test in purely economic terms and there is little scope for political deliberation around that, but project B does not or is marginal, then it becomes very difficult for us to accept that politicians' decisions are justifiable.

Nicol Stephen:

There are two points to be made in that regard. First, the STAG appraisal provides for net present value figures and a cost-benefit analysis. If we were to base our investment decisions purely on net present value figures, we would probably undertake very few public transport schemes but very many road schemes—my officials can correct me if that is inaccurate.

That brings me to my second point, which is that the STAG appraisal is based on a set of criteria or rules that can be changed over time. We introduced the STAG appraisal quite recently. It might be questioned whether the STAG gives sufficient consideration to environmental or safety issues or to issues that might enable public transport schemes to score better, but if it did, an economist might say that we were rigging things in favour of public transport and that that would not be a rigorous approach. We had to strike a balance but, at the end of the day, it was a political decision rather than an economic or analytical one to favour greater spend on public transport schemes and to invest in major schemes, even where the cost benefit is marginal. Very few of our public transport schemes have a significant positive net present value; one or two do, but not many.

I will bring in Damian Sharp, but my final point is that we are only as good as the schemes that we come up with and that we can analyse. Anyone who has been involved in a local authority will know that many schemes—certainly in the local authority on which I served—would stay in year 5 of the capital programme every year and so, as programmes rolled forward, there would be a long tail of projects which politicians did not want to take off the priority list, but which were never funded and just did not happen. How many projects would the committee want us to appraise and take to the level of engineering and other works to properly analyse them? The truth of the matter is that our capital programme is heavily committed to delivering the projects that are on our list right here and now.

Damian Sharp (Scottish Executive Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Department):

Some public transport schemes have strongly positive net present value—if that is the criterion that we are considering—such as the Edinburgh Waverley scheme, in which the net present value is more than £2 billion. That is a very strong scheme in anyone's book. Few schemes are in that category, although some produce good numbers, including the Edinburgh airport rail link and the tram schemes. Many schemes perform a bit better than just being marginal; even if they are not as strong as the Edinburgh airport rail link they bring significant inclusion and environmental benefits.

It is difficult to bring together everything and I do not think that we can find a single number. To reduce the matter to that level of simplicity does not deal with the fact that we are dealing with complex problems. The advantage of STAG is that we can examine situations, but ultimately it is a political decision whether to attach weight to raw economics, social inclusion, the environment or to a combination of those, or whether we take the view that different parts of the country have different problems and that we should therefore adjust the decision-making criteria.

Can you give us examples of schemes that have been shelved as a result of a STAG evaluation? You have told us about projects that are going ahead, but what about the other list of projects that, by definition, were not political priorities?

There are relatively few in that category because the STAG process is relatively new. When did we do our first STAG appraisals?

Damian Sharp:

STAG came out in draft in 2001.

The process is significantly onerous, so we tend to do STAG appraisals on the major projects on our current list that are proceeding.

Alasdair Morgan:

I just wonder what the point is. It seems to me that there are only two categories—projects that get a good score in the STAG appraisal and go ahead, and those that do not get a good score but go ahead because of political priorities. That is it.

Damian Sharp:

I can think of some schemes that, because of the STAG process, have not come to us for a decision. The minister is right to say that very few have come to us—

To whom did they go?

Damian Sharp:

In the corridor study, the STAG process considered options including, for example, joining Glasgow Queen Street and Glasgow Central stations by means of an underground tunnel. The STAG appraisal assessed that project as not meeting the objectives of the study. That is not to say that such a tunnel will never happen, but the scheme was not suitable when it was measured against the objectives of the STAG appraisal. The same thing happened to the scheme for electrification of the Shotts railway line. There were options for meeting the objectives of the STAG appraisal, but those schemes were not the best way of doing that. Those were not decisions for the Executive, but were part of the process that led to the advice that came to ministers. Projects tend to fall away quite early in the process.

Nicol Stephen:

Similarly, different schemes were proposed for the Glasgow airport rail link and the Edinburgh airport rail link. Indeed, a cheaper scheme was proposed for the Edinburgh link, but we went for a more expensive scheme because it had the best cost benefit. The project's net present value seemed to be so much better when compared to the other schemes, so we decided to go for the more ambitious and expensive scheme.

STAG appraisals are also done by developers and local authorities. I know of some projects for which the cost benefit is not sufficient to generate a positive response from the Executive.

The Convener:

We seem to be in difficulty. At one level, you have set several goals that you want to reach through allocation of transport spend. All of that is in the context of the Government's overall top priority of economic growth. However, you seem to be saying that you consider the projects and come up with a number and then, in some cases, you ignore the number because you do not like it or, in other cases, it knocks out a scheme such as the Glasgow tunnel, which Damian Sharp mentioned.

I will focus on one of the issues that have caused controversy: Borders rail. As I understand it, the housing regeneration that is linked with the STAG appraisal for the Waverley line will be mainly in Midlothian, as will the economic growth benefits. Is there a net present value for taking the Borders rail link only to Gorebridge? Would that be different from the net present value of taking the line out to Galashiels? If the NPVs are different, what is the justification for building the line out to Galashiels?

Nicol Stephen:

If we were to build the line to Gorebridge only, the net present value would be more significantly positive. You should remember that the appraisal for the full line that is now being considered is also positive. If the line went to only Gorebridge, it would give a higher net present value, but it would not then be a Borders railway.

So it is a political totem rather than an economic growth-based calculation.

You are implying a lot.

I am not. I am simply asking what the objective justification is for making that decision and not any of the other decisions that could conceivably have been taken.

Nicol Stephen:

The position is that the Executive cannot promote major public transport infrastructure projects itself. We have to rely on others to promote proposals through the private bills process—that said, I believe that the position needs to change. In this instance, a partnership has made a proposal, which is for the reinstatement of the full Borders railway and not for a scheme to Gorebridge. We evaluated the proposal in the same way that we evaluated proposals from Transport Initiatives Edinburgh and the City of Edinburgh Council for the Edinburgh airport rail link or from Strathclyde Passenger Transport for the Glasgow airport rail link.

The Executive evaluates a proposal in close co-operation with the promoter. We have to bring some objectivity, rigour and appropriate scrutiny to the process and that is what we have done with the evaluation of the Borders railway scheme. The Waverley Railway (Scotland) Bill Committee also does that; it looks closely at the business case, the full proposal and objections. The committee sees that everything is done in an open and transparent way in order to ensure that the project stacks up.

I return to your previous point about schemes that have a poor or negative net present value. As yet, we have not given approval to any scheme with a poor or negative net present value. At one point, I think that the net present value of the Stirling-Alloa-Kincardine railway project was marginally negative—Damian Sharp may confirm whether that is right. Clearly, if ministers wanted to give the go-ahead to a scheme that had a significantly negative net present value, an accountable officer direction would be needed. The senior civil servant with responsibility for the appropriate investment of Government money would seek such a request. Ultimately, approval would still be at the discretion of ministers, who could decide to go ahead with a scheme for political reasons, because of its importance or in order to ensure that spending on transport infrastructure is spread across all Scotland.

One of the inevitabilities of making decisions that are based only on net present value and cost-benefit ratio is that the investment will tend to be pulled towards the central belt. The return on any given investment tends to be greater in densely populated areas, yet there is a duty on ministers to ensure that a reasonable spread of investment is made across Scotland. Investment needs to reach rural areas and areas of deprivation; transport investment must be seen to benefit all parts of Scotland.

John Ewing:

In the case of the Borders railway, it is perhaps worth remembering that the Waverley railway partnership consists of the City of Edinburgh Council as well as Midlothian Council and Scottish Borders Council. All three councils signed up to the concept of building the railway out to Galashiels. I understand that the City of Edinburgh Council sees the railway as part of a longer-term process of gaining access to labour and housing markets that will encourage growth in and around Edinburgh. The City of Edinburgh Council views the decision to build the railway to Galashiels as a key strategic decision. The initial benefits would be higher if the railway were to be built only to Gorebridge.

The Convener:

I am sure that the City of Edinburgh Council would be in favour of lots or transport projects in Edinburgh, particularly if Scottish Executive money is involved. I assume that other local authorities with proposals for their areas think likewise.

There is a paradox in what we are hearing this morning. You say that the intention behind the STAG appraisal process is to deliver an objective basis for decision making, a core element of which is net present value, as support for economic growth has been identified as the top priority for Scotland. However, you also seem to be saying that the decision is ultimately a political one and not one that holds to the principle that it is better to start with schemes that deliver the best return on investment. Why does the Executive go to the elaborate trouble of requiring STAG appraisals and looking for net present value only to ignore what the process tells it?

John Ewing:

We are not saying that we ignore what is said in the STAG appraisals. The process means that we have to have clear reasons why we favour one scheme over another. Given the choice between two schemes with slightly different NPVs, it may well be that we would favour one because of its more strongly positive environmental impact or because it will achieve greater benefits in terms of integration. The critical thing is to have a clear rationale for the decision to back any given scheme.

The Convener:

If I understood him correctly, I think that Damian Sharp said that the Waverley scheme met the criteria absolutely and delivered a high rate of return in terms of net present value. I assume that the part of the Borders rail line to Gorebridge meets a higher threshold. I do not want to pick on Borders rail; I am simply trying to understand the issues.

Is the Executive adopting a fundamentally business-like approach in making these assessments? How are decisions made? If a scheme is politically sensitive, what are the reasons for deciding not to proceed with it?

Damian Sharp:

There is a fundamental difference between what a railway to Gorebridge and a railway to Galashiels will deliver. That is reflected in the STAG appraisal, which shows the different outcomes.

Will you tell us what those different outcomes are?

Damian Sharp:

The appraisal of the line to Gorebridge shows that, in transport economic terms—I am referring to the TE efficiency tables—a better return will result on the investment. However, the economic and locational impact assessment of going only to Gorebridge shows that that would have little, if any, economic impact on the Borders. The work that DTZ Pieda Consulting undertook, which was updated by Tribal HCH Ltd, shows that that is the case.

There is a difference of emphasis in the—

But surely the point of reference is not the Borders but Scotland. Surely the Executive makes an assessment of projects based on the contribution that they would make to Scotland.

Damian Sharp:

Yes. STAG also requires an assessment of how the impact is distributed within Scotland; it shows what the different emphasis and impact of a project will be. It is then clear to ministers what they will get for a given investment.

I think that we should move on from this line of questioning. Before I proceed to a question about the management of costs, I think that Andrew Arbuckle wants to come in.

Mr Andrew Arbuckle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD):

My question is in a similar vein to those of the convener. In his introductory remarks, the minister referred to the £35 million that is to be given over the next three years to the regional transport partnerships. Have schemes been identified for the partnerships or will the RTPs be given the money and asked to decide on their own priorities, with no STAG appraisal process and therefore no commonality between them? The question that I should have asked first is why the figure is £35 million and not £45 million or whatever?

Nicol Stephen:

It is £35 million because that is a significant new amount of funding for transport and specifically for the new regional transport partnerships. The simple answer to your other question is that the approach to allocating the funding has not yet been agreed. We want to ensure that there is a proper appraisal of projects and that we invest in the best-value projects.

We also want to ensure a consistency of approach between the regional transport partnerships. I say that with the proviso that I gave in my previous reply, which is that it is important that all parts of Scotland access the £35 million. If all the projects that are announced are those in the central belt with the best cost-benefit ratios, we would hear an outcry from the regional transport partnerships in other parts of Scotland. There would be an outcry if all the funding were to be concentrated in one area.

We have to make sure that we have a sensible approach, that we get cracking with projects and that we encourage the voluntary partnerships to start considering projects this year, because the STAG appraisal process is reasonably lengthy and we have to get up and running. There is broad cross-party support for the new regional transport partnerships and I am determined to ensure that we encourage the voluntary partnerships to get moving. Where there are no voluntary partnerships—it is only a small part of Scotland where that is the case—we have to create a structure to start thinking about projects soon.

Before you move on to the next section of questions, I make a final point in relation to the questions that you asked on the current appraisal process and the cost-benefit studies. If you are suggesting that we have given approval to a number of projects that have negative net present values or non-existent cost benefits, or that we have been ignoring STAG appraisal outcomes, that is completely wrong. Some projects have had different net present values and different cost-benefit figures, but in no instance have we reached the stage at which an accountable officer direction has been required. I do not hide the fact that we could get to that point, but all the projects that we have taken forward since the STAG appraisal process was introduced have been good projects, because projects are examined carefully and there is a sifting process. People proceed with projects only if they believe that there will be a positive case for them. Our projects have been positive and we have not had to ignore the outcome of the STAG appraisals.

The Convener:

To clarify, my argument is slightly different. It is possible to suggest that some projects have had to be worked hard in order for them to pass the STAG appraisal test and get a positive indication. You say that the test is whether ministerial direction is required, but I think that we are looking for a higher test involving a balance between different projects, each of which can show real benefits in global terms.

I said that I was going to move on to cost overruns and the management of projects. We know that all capital schemes have the capacity to run over cost and that some cost overruns are predictable and some are harder to predict. There are values against projects in the infrastructure investment plan, but there are also indications that some of them are overrunning. A recent example, which I am sure you know about, is the Aberdeen western peripheral route. Decisions are still to be made about the alignment and components of the route. Can you give us any information on the latest projections of the costs, perhaps in the form of a band of costs?

Nicol Stephen:

We are considering a number of route options. John Howison can provide more details, but we have not yet reached a decision on the preferred corridor for the road. The consultation ends on 29 April, so we are near to the end. We will take decisions on the preferred route in the late summer or early autumn once we have had a full opportunity to consider the comments that have been received—there are a significant number.

John Howison:

The present cost forecasts are in the range £210 million to £280 million as outturn prices.

How does that relate to the indicative allocations that have been made for the project?

John Howison:

When we inherited the scheme from the councils, the budget was about £120 million, I think.

So you are saying that the costs have more than doubled.

John Howison:

The costs will be what the costs will be. The other way to look at the matter is that the estimates that were given previously do not match our present expectations of cost.

John Ewing:

It is important to reflect on the process from which the cost of any capital project emerges. An estimate will be made, but it will probably be a largely desk-based estimate; there will be some understanding of the route conditions, but in general it is a paper exercise that produces an indicative set of numbers. That is why we talk about the concept of optimism bias, which involves adding a big percentage chunk on top because we know that the first guess will be wrong. It will be a stab and it will give an indication of the broad scale of the project, but it will be wrong.

As we go through the process, we refine the project and, in the case of a project such as the Aberdeen western peripheral route, we identify the route options. We also do more detailed analysis of the ground conditions, which involves deciding where the road will need to go and considering where bridges and other infrastructure will have to be built. By doing that work, we create a bigger package that is better designed and engineered. The costings that John Howison described represent a much more designed cost for the route. If one of the other routes is chosen, the cost will change again, depending on the ground conditions.

After that, we go through the process of working up the detailed design of the project and putting it out to tender. John Howison said that the costs will be what the costs will be and, in a sense, it is at that stage that the markets tell us what the cost will be. We then have to run cost-control mechanisms to make sure that the project is delivered within that cost. We have delivered our roads projects using design and build contracts with a cost overrun of about 3.5 per cent against the tender price—that is the firm price.

At each stage in the process, as the cost information becomes firmer, one has to step back and assess whether it is still worth while to go ahead with the project and whether its benefits still justify the expenditure. There is a review mechanism at each point; we do not work on the premise that because the project looked all right at the beginning, it must be delivered. The project must be analysed at each stage and one must ask whether it is still worth while.

The Convener:

How does that process become transparent and subject to parliamentary scrutiny? The initial announcement that is made is based on a cost figure and a STAG appraisal, but if the costs change significantly—as in the case of the Aberdeen western peripheral route, although my point could apply to any major capital project—at what point does your internal review process become something that we as parliamentarians can scrutinise in a sensible way? We might say, "Perhaps project X is no longer sensible, given the new cost factors."

John Ewing:

I suppose that that would come at the next stage of the project, when the minister makes another announcement. In the case of the Aberdeen western peripheral route, that will be when the consultation process has been completed and ministers take a view on the preferred route. We can then give a clearer view on what its costs will be.

The ministerial announcement might be about the preferred route and not about whether the project has satisfied a second test, which is what you were talking about.

Nicol Stephen:

We need to find a better way of achieving that, particularly in relation to private bills. You have concerns about the way in which the financial resolutions on private bills come before the Parliament, and we are talking about big sums of money for some projects. I am happy to provide information and appear before the committee whenever you think it appropriate. We are developing an approach; part of the reason why that is happening only now is that although capital spend was quite restricted in the early days of the Scottish Parliament, it is now expanding significantly. We now have some major projects costing £500 million or more and a number of projects on which expenditure is more than £100 million, and it is important that the Parliament and the Finance Committee are involved in a better way than at present. It is for all of us collectively to put in place mechanisms that will allow proper scrutiny. If we put such mechanisms in place, they will enable us to deliver on projects more effectively and will benefit schemes. It is important that we are tested on projects regularly and that we consider costs and timetables. Appropriate accountability for all that must be in place.

The Convener:

That would be welcome. The ministerial announcements process raises an issue, because ministers tend to announce projects that will proceed. We are interested in the process by which such decisions are made. Perhaps we need to examine the timing of dialogue between the committee and the Executive to ensure that the announcements that are ultimately made fit in with the transparent process that we would all like to have. We could discuss that with your officials later.

That would be helpful.

The Convener:

I realise that I am hogging the questions a wee bit, so I will ask just one final question. If a large rail or road scheme were delayed by unforeseen circumstances or for legal reasons, we could have a significant underspend, because resources could not be committed. What mechanisms are in place to ensure that money that is allocated to transport continues to be spent on transport in the given timescales—to ensure that problems with one project do not lead to major delivery issues in the transport budget? Is there a mechanism to put other schemes through the process faster? The question is for John Ewing and the minister.

Nicol Stephen:

I emphasise that such a problem has no perfect solution. It is vital to manage the capital programme actively and to ensure that we are still working on several smaller and medium-sized projects that can be brought forward and delivered in a relatively short time. It would be wrong to end up with a capital programme that squeezed out important smaller projects.

I have worked hard to ensure that the capital spend that is allocated to transport contains funding for our major projects and funding to safeguard the capital projects about which many members write to me each week—projects that have a high priority in their areas but which are often squeezed out of the programme or pushed to another year.

If we adopt that approach—which we have taken—and have overspends on major projects, the big issue is whether we can obtain additional funding for transport infrastructure projects in that year or whether the pressure is on to delay other major projects or to stop some small or medium-sized projects. We are determined to address openly and effectively those big issues for the future management of the capital programme, should they arise.

John Ewing:

As the convener recognises, the situation is difficult when we deal with very large projects. When we have a programme of smaller projects to work on, including projects with local authorities, the potential exists to combine a judicious bit of over-allocation with bringing forward projects. That can be managed. However, the situation is extraordinarily difficult with the big and chunky major projects that we are discussing. In that situation, we must rely on the end-year flexibility rules on 100 per cent carry-forward of capital slippage.

The creation of the central unallocated provision mechanism will also give us a basis when a big project looks as if it will be delayed. As we know, one major project has the risk of legal challenge. If a challenge were made, it would affect our procurement strategy and we might well have to tell the minister that our best estimate is that the project might slip and that money could be put away into the CUP for future years when the challenge is removed. Alternatively, money could be spent on another project.

We invest the time and effort to work up designs and obtain approvals for some projects that are parked, so that if something goes awry, we can try to bring in another project. That depends on the relative values of schemes.

The Convener:

It would be useful to have in writing a description of how such brought-forward arrangements might work. We all understand how the CUP operates. That is an important aspect of the financial management of underspends. However, the minister and his officials must also undertake strategic anticipation to ensure that we do not lose momentum throughout the transport portfolio because of the delays that can occur.

Jim Mather:

Minister, I am trying hard to resist your bringing out the Alan Sugar or Donald Trump in me, but I am disappointed by the lack of passion and positivity about the projects that are at your disposal. Will we see some passion in the strategic projects review, which was announced in June 2004? What impact will that have on the flagship projects that are identified in the infrastructure investment plan?

Nicol Stephen:

The strategic projects review concerns the next phase. In the current phase, the projects are identified and we are determined to proceed with them and to deliver them on time and on budget. They are as set out. If we are to deliver them, our capital spend will have to increase significantly.

I will scratch at the review's purpose. What evaluation criteria will be used? How open and objective will the review be? Will it fuel parliamentary scrutiny by allowing us to evaluate the likely impact on the economy?

Nicol Stephen:

The process will be major and open. The regional transport partnerships will have a key role to play in proposing projects, but they will also have a duty to work together. For example, the west of Scotland partnership will work with the east of Scotland partnership on issues that relate to the linkages between Edinburgh and Glasgow. Other parts of Scotland have similar important cross-boundary issues. MSPs, local authorities, businesses and business groups will have the opportunity to contribute. As I said, we are only as good as the projects that we come up with. I hope that some projects will be exciting and major and will set the tone for transport infrastructure investment in Scotland for the first half of the 21st century.

The feedback from the committee will have shown you that we have an appetite for openness and objectivity to fuel the debate and to generate excitement and pace. Is that envisaged as part of the design criteria in the review?

Nicol Stephen:

I am interested that you talk about excitement, pace and dynamism. Much of what I have heard has been about cost-benefit analysis, net present values and ministers not using their political powers to approve projects unless they have the right economic appraisal context. If you suggest that the dynamism and the pace come from members' side of the table, I have not sensed that today—perhaps I should leave it at that.

Jim Mather:

A review of the tapes might be quite illuminating for all of us.

It might be helpful if I were to move to a more specific issue. Reports in the media have indicated that the Executive is considering buying out the Inverness airport public-private partnership contract. Can you shed any light on that?

Nicol Stephen:

Yes. Provided that the cost benefits and the net present values are in our favour, we would like to buy out the contract at the Inverness airport terminal. We have been in discussions and negotiations with the current owner of the contract. The ownership of the contract changed last year, which meant that there was a delay as we had had discussions with the previous owner. However, I am still optimistic that we can get a positive outcome. Clearly, however, the negotiations are commercially confidential. I think that our proposal to remove the burden of that contract would make a significant difference to the development not only of Inverness airport, but of the Inverness area and much of the Highlands.

Is removing that burden likely to have an impact on the finances that are available to Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd, especially with regard to other airport developments that might otherwise be happening in the Highlands?

Nicol Stephen:

It could have, depending on how we structure the funding that we would give to HIAL to enable it to carry out the buy-out. That is the way in which we would do it: rather than having a direct deal between the Executive and the current owners, the buy-out would be executed through HIAL. I do not want to do it in a way that will burden HIAL. If we did so, we would be replacing one millstone with another. The important thing to achieve is the development of the economy in Inverness and the Highlands, and the removal of something that is a significant burden on that economy and will continue to be so unless something is done about the structure of the contract.

Jim Mather:

I take comfort from that answer, which saves me from having to ask the supplementary question that I was going to ask.

In relation to the options of introducing tendering for the west coast ferry services or not doing so, have you given consideration to the impact of investment in new harbour and linkspan facilities and new and refurbished vessels? Is there a plan A and a plan B in relation to the capital programmes for the funding of those assets?

Nicol Stephen:

There are plans for the funding of new vessels and for improvements to the ports and harbour facilities. The proposal is that, if the tendering were to proceed—of course, it is on hold at the moment and we do not know what the outcome of our discussions with the EU will be—those assets would go into a separate vessel-owning company that would also have responsibility for the port infrastructure, which is currently the responsibility of Caledonian MacBrayne. If we can avoid the requirement to introduce tendering, we would have to either maintain the current position or come up with further arrangements that would comply with the EU laws and regulations in this area.

As a general comment, I would say that the more that we can get into the long-term, 10-year planning of infrastructure investment and longer-term capital programmes for investment in new vessels and harbour facilities, the better. One of the criticisms of Government is that we do not have those longer-term investment plans. One of the reasons for that is that, often, investment has been haphazard. Vessels would be bought as and when they could be, such as when there were end-year resources or when a minister was able to make a particular case to the minister with responsibility for the purse strings. I hope that we can move away from that ad hoc approach and put in place a more substantial programme of investment across the transport portfolio.

Jim Mather:

That is another useful answer. Given what you have said in that answer and in answer to my question about the Inverness airport PPP contract, is there a case for coming up with a set of criteria and targets for growing the economy of areas such as the west coast or the area around the airport? A broad aspiration regarding population figures, for example, or on the number of economically active people in the area could be taken on board by the transport division in moving in the right direction to energise those economies.

Nicol Stephen:

There is a case for that approach, but I would not put the responsibility purely on the transport division, which will have a major task simply to deliver those projects on time and on budget. I would rather see the transport division working closely not only with the new regional transport partnerships and the local authorities, but with the local enterprise companies and Highlands and Islands Enterprise, which would have a crucial role in that area. A better-integrated approach between transport and the enterprise agencies, involving planning—getting back to the convener's first point—in a much more substantial and co-ordinated way, could be exciting for the future of infrastructure investment in Scotland.

Mr Brocklebank:

I share some of the convener's difficulties in getting to grips with how you differentiate between your priorities and the different modes of transport and how you come to your decisions. It is a bit surprising that, although you have your strategy, Scotland does not have a national integrated plan for transport. When you consider the allocation of investment funds between the differing transport modes and investment opportunities, are you satisfied with the information that you have available?

Nicol Stephen:

One of the major policy decisions that I took after being appointed in 2003 was to move to a national transport strategy—call it a strategy, call it a plan, but there has never been such a thing in Scotland. I could make a party-political point in relation to that. In the past, the attitude has been to let the market decide, to let ad hoc schemes emerge and to leave matters to the responsibility of individual local authorities and individual developers. In relation to transport, the attitude in the final decades of the previous century was that the main responsibility was for roads. Very few significant public transport projects were being funded in Scotland. We funded CalMac and, to a small extent, Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd; the funding of both has gone up dramatically in recent years. However, what we did was for no better reason than the historic structure of the transport spend.

We must get away from that, move forward and start taking the decisions that the committee is asking us to take. There are two ways of doing that, one of which would be for me to say, "We do not have a strategy—or plan—and we need one quickly. I, as Minister for Transport, will take a centralised approach and put a plan in place within the next few months". The alternative is that we could take a bit longer and involve MSPs and organisations such as local authorities and the new regional transport partnerships. It is important that we take an open and inclusive approach. However, I share your frustration that we could do with that plan now. We could have done with it a few years ago, and we have got to get cracking with it.

Mr Brocklebank:

The response to the party-political point is that you have now had six years. Much of what you say is aspirational, but where is the hard evidence? Apart from the M74 extension, with its claimed cost-benefit ratio of 9—perhaps you can explain what that means—what are the typical cost-benefit ratios of the road and rail schemes that are listed in your plan?

The simple answer is that there is a range. Damian Sharp could best describe the range for the public transport projects and John Howison could best describe the range for the road projects.

John Howison:

The larger schemes—the motorways—typically have a cost-benefit ratio of about 4 up to about 9. That is because the present traffic conditions cause fairly substantial congestion for a large number of people. Things such as route action plans, which provide connection to rural areas, typically have lower cost-benefit ratios of between 1 and 2. They are positive and worth doing, but they do not deliver the same sort of returns on the investment as the bigger schemes do. Nevertheless, they are still worth doing to ensure that Scotland maintains an integrated transport capability.

For example, in 1960 it would have taken about 10 hours to travel from Carlisle up to Caithness. Because of all the benefits of the improvements to that road, the journey can now be done in about six hours during periods in which there is no congestion. The investments that we have made in all the routes together have shrunk Scotland, in terms of getting around it. The challenge that is now reflected in the very high cost-benefit ratios of the motorway network is the resultant congestion.

Mr Brocklebank:

I do not want to concentrate on the Borders rail link; it is probably not appropriate for me to do so, given that I am on the committee that is dealing with it. Nevertheless, I will make one brief point. You mentioned cuts in journey times. Is it not a fact that the journey along the proposed Borders railway will take longer, because of the number of stations, than the journey along the railway that it will succeed, which closed 30 or 40 years ago? Is not that one of the problems?

Damian Sharp:

The journey will take approximately the same length of time.

I have heard that it will be 15 minutes longer.

Damian Sharp:

That is not correct. It would be true if the trains had not stopped on the way, but the trains on the previous railway stopped at all the stations that are proposed except Tweedbank. Compared with the current public transport, the Borders railway offers a 30-minute journey time saving.

Okay. I had probably best leave that issue.

How much of the investment is allocated on grounds other than ranking according to the Scottish transport appraisal guidance?

Damian Sharp:

The Scottish transport appraisal guidance does not rank schemes. It does not produce a list that starts at the best and proceeds to the bottom, although that can be done with the net present value or the cost-benefit ratio. The Scottish transport appraisal guidance appraises across five criteria that cannot be combined into a single number, therefore it presents the impacts of a scheme to decision makers. It does not produce a list from one to 100.

Should it not?

Damian Sharp:

We are dealing with very complex problems. I am not sure that trying to cram down those problems into such a list would not over-simplify the world that we are trying to deal with.

John Ewing:

One of the advantages of STAG—one of the reasons for its introduction—was the fact that it introduced a capacity to assess and evaluate benefits and costs that could not be translated into monetary terms, which is what assessment by NPV and economic assessment does. STAG builds on the economic assessment. Some pretty heroic assumptions would then have to be made in any attempt to quantify those figures. A ranking of projects could be produced, by NPV and the other factors that need to be taken into account in making a decision on them. However, STAG produces a more comprehensive report on any individual project; it does not just look at the cost-benefit ratio or the NPV.

The Convener:

As you say, there are some heroic documents to wade through. The one that I am holding is for the Borders railway; the one for the M74 is twice the thickness. Perhaps it is necessary to separate out rail and road projects, for the reasons that you mentioned, because of the difference in the criteria. However, is it not possible to do what a project assessment might normally be expected to do, which is to produce a grid in which a range of criteria is given 10 points or five points—or whatever the appropriate number might be—to find out how the more objective indicators compare from one project to another?

Damian Sharp:

Although the STAG summary table, which is typically two or three pages long, does not assign numeric values in that way, it sets out whether various factors have a strong, moderate or weak impact.

The Convener:

But that is for each individual project. Is it possible to use the same criteria to find out how all the projects score against each other? For example, five of the major projects that are proposed are for Edinburgh, and I presume that you have to take some decision about timescale or funding priorities with regard to Waverley station, the Edinburgh airport rail link, the Borders railway and the tram proposals. After all, in order for any judgment to be made, one of those projects must emerge as a more urgent priority or as something that will provide a better return. However, the problem is that we have no evidence that you make such comparisons or judgments. Our report suggests that that is a defect in the way in which such matters are handled. Am I right to say that you do not make such comparisons?

Damian Sharp:

We make those comparisons explicitly with regard to proposals that are alternatives to each other. As far as your example is concerned, we will very soon strengthen my team in order to manage the many projects in the greater Edinburgh area that interact with each other and the fact that they will have to be done in a certain order. Indeed, I was interviewing yesterday for that role.

However, it is a question not just of priority but of literal dependencies. For example, we cannot put additional rail services into Fife until we have carried out phase 1 of Waverley station. We must work with the complexities of what we can and must do within the network and the order in which projects have to be done. Much of that is to do with the art of the achievable rather than with the theoretical order in which we carry out projects, because in that regard we are severely constrained by the rail network.

The Convener:

At this point, Jim Mather would usually make a comparison with business. However, I would have thought that a business organisation that had to spend much smaller sums of money than those that you are talking about would still identify a critical path of investment decisions and make judgments about different investment options based precisely on the issues such as deliverability, value and rate of return that you have identified. You do not seem to be making such judgments or to be able to communicate clearly to us how comparative assessments could be made.

Nicol Stephen:

A major projects review reported when—as I recall—Sarah Boyack was still the minister, and judgments were made then. I was not involved in them. However, I must emphasise that this is not about the lack or availability of a plan or strategy; we must also take into account the availability of funding. In 1999, the total funding for all roads and public transport projects was between £350 million and £400 million. We are now moving up to a budget of £1.4 billion a year, which is transforming the level of investment in our roads and public transport infrastructure.

We intend to have a national transport strategy; we will have a strategic projects review; and we are putting in place a transport agency and regional transport partnerships. As well as investing the additional funds, we are tackling exactly the issues that the committee rightly draws to our attention. One could say that we should have done all those things two or three years ago, but we are where we are today. I am pleased that we are now planning a national transport strategy, that we will have the agency in place before the end of the year, that we have decided where the agency will be located and that we have advertised for a chief executive.

If we had had those measures in place in the early part of this decade, that would have been preferable, but we are making progress. The detailed points that members are making would be far more substantial criticisms if there were a list of public transport projects that had better value-for-money returns and a better cost benefit and which we were holding back because we had given preference to those projects that happened to be first on the list or that happened to have political priority at the time. However, the situation is not like that.

We are developing all the good projects that have been suggested by transport experts in Scotland. I am not aware of anyone clamouring out and saying, "You should drop that project in favour of this project" if it has not yet been analysed or should be scrutinised. No doubt there are a number of projects that will come forward in the next phase as part of the strategic projects review. Those projects should be properly scrutinised and in some way ranked or judged with regard to which of them has priority. We will be able to do only a small number of the very big projects. The Finance Committee and others, as well as the Minister for Transport, will have to take a view on the sort of blue-skies projects that get spoken about, such as a new crossing of the Forth or a super-fast rail link between Edinburgh and Glasgow. I am sure that other suggestions will be made and we have to start to take a view on them. It is better that we do that soon—now—rather than waiting until beyond 2010.

The Convener:

I agree that we need to do things better. Substantial amounts of money are involved and, as we have seen, there are shifting costs. We cannot say that certain decisions have been made and that we will not look at them any more. The Finance Committee is required to look at the management of such projects systematically.

Nicol Stephen:

Other European nations are making significantly greater levels of capital investment. I ask members to look at some of their decision-making processes. I question whether any European nation has in place the sort of robust, economic, almost academic approach that the committee seems to suggest would be a good approach for Scotland.

I am not in any way resisting or trying to argue against some of the suggestions that members are making—some of them are good suggestions and we need to put in place those systems over the next few years. However, if Scotland had a weakness, that would have been not its decision-making process, but its complete lack of investment and lack of a plan and strategy.

The Convener:

I do not disagree with that point, but the substantive points that came from our report are that we are concerned that each project seems to have been considered in a silo context rather than on a regional or conurbation basis. The primary criteria seem to be confined to each project and not transferable across projects; nor do they look at broader ends such as economic growth. The critical path that we talked about earlier is not clear to us. We are not absolutely clear why certain projects are in or out, the grounds on which a project is rejected or could be changed, or how you respond to changes in the parameters. Perhaps it is our fault that we have not read the documents carefully enough.

John Ewing:

As the minister said, a number of the projects flowed from previous strategic reviews of what was required, such as completing the central Scotland network. The Executive has been clear in the partnership agreement that it wants to deliver those projects and that is what we are committed to doing; in a way, that offers value for money and ensures that there is proper protection for the investment that is being made. Each of the projects is being evaluated in a way that tries to ensure that when ministers have to take key decisions on the funding of projects, they have the information that enables them to say whether they will go with a project or not, or whether something needs to be changed or adjusted.

John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP):

The contribution of the minister and his team has been refreshingly honest, transparent and non-evasive. I am an outsider looking in and am not on the same high financial level as some of my compatriots on the committee.

Despite the STAG appraisal and the infrastructure investment plan, you admit quite candidly that you can be susceptible to influence from pressure groups, be they political or otherwise. I was particularly taken with your statement about the financial criteria not being sufficiently robust to allow you to deliver projects at the original cost. That was very honest and straightforward.

What can the committee do to ensure that the cost of a project will be kept within the parameters that you envisaged when it was laid before the Parliament?

John Ewing:

It would be for the committee to consider, but I suggest ensuring that the information is the best that is available at the time, and recognising that the quality of the information will improve as a project is worked up and developed. It should be acknowledged that no one is trying to pretend that the original estimate is wildly wrong; it was made on the basis of a set of assumptions that underpinned the project and, as the project plan is developed and the process is gone through, those assumptions are refined and risks are analysed and quantified. We begin to identify the measures that are needed to manage those risks, and that refines the cost. It is about making sure that there is a robust process and that the cost is always being challenged as the project is being progressed.

We have probably finished our questions. Given John Swinburne's point, it might be helpful if you and I and the clerks could have a further discussion about identifying the correct point in the process at which we can exercise such scrutiny.

Yes.

That would then feed into our work plan for the period.

On behalf of the committee, I thank you for coming along and answering our questions.

Meeting continued in private until 12:58.