Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee

Meeting date: Wednesday, April 24, 2013

Official Report 646KB pdf

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Bannockburn 2014

Item 2 is an evidence session on Bannockburn 2014, which the committee has received quite a lot of correspondence about. I am very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sir Malcolm MacGregor, convener of the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs; Johanna Boyd, leader of Stirling Council; from the National Trust for Scotland, Pete Selman, director of properties and visitor services and project sponsor for the battle of Bannockburn project, and David McAllister, project director for the battle of Bannockburn project; and from the Scottish Government, Caroline Packman, who is director of homecoming Scotland. Welcome all and thank you for coming along.

Before we go into questions, the National Trust for Scotland and Caroline Packman want to say something by way of introduction.

Thank you, convener and members of the committee, for the invitation to attend this morning. I am the National Trust for Scotland’s project director for the battle of Bannockburn project and, as the convener said, I am joined by Pete Selman, who is the project sponsor.

You have asked us to respond to questions concerning the accountability, planning and resourcing of Bannockburn 2014. In our letter to the committee, we sought to clarify the point that the trust is involved in two distinct projects that are centred on the Bannockburn site.

The first of those is the battle of Bannockburn visitor centre. We are working in partnership with Historic Scotland to develop interpretation and learning installations within a new, state-of-the-art battle of Bannockburn visitor centre, which is now well advanced in construction. Indeed, I was on site yesterday and saw that there has been a great deal of progress.

As part of that project, we are carrying out significant landscaping works around the site, through which we will restore dignity to the battlefield and its monuments and reaffirm the heritage significance of the place. The total project cost is £9.1 million, and it is entirely funded through capital grants to the NTS. The Scottish Government has pledged £5 million, and a further £4.1 million has been generously allocated by the Heritage Lottery Fund.

The displays and exhibits in the new centre will utilise the latest technology. We have commissioned award-winning architects, interpreters and digital designers to bring the battle to life. Bright White Ltd is designing the interpretation and exhibits, bringing its experience of using new technology to improve understanding in visitor attractions.

The team is working with the centre for digital design and visualisation, which is a partnership between Historic Scotland and Glasgow School of Art’s digital design studio, on building an innovative digital exhibition that will give visitors a unique understanding of what it would have been like to be at Bannockburn 700 years ago. An exciting centrepiece of the new centre will be a detailed and highly interactive presentation on how the battle was fought and won. All that technology rests on telling vivid stories and relaying historical fact, and we are working with a distinguished panel of academic experts to ensure that our interpretative materials are as accurate as they are striking. We wish to immerse the visitor in the realities of 14th century life and to challenge many modern myths and preconceptions.

Award-winning architects Reiach and Hall have been appointed to design the new centre building and landscape architects Ian White Associates have been appointed to adapt the topography to one more representative of its historical design and purpose.

The proposals for all this have been carefully thought out to open up the views to the commemorative monuments and to provide better visitor facilities than we have ever had before.

The second project element on which you have asked us to comment is the battle of Bannockburn re-enactment event, which is now due to take place over the long weekend of 28 to 30 June 2014. That will follow the opening of the new centre in order specifically to mark the anniversary of the battle.

We had long decided that there would be another re-enactment to mark this unique occasion. The last such event that the trust staged was in 2007 and was considered successful. We used our connections with experienced re-enactors of medieval battles to attract large numbers and we made a modest profit. To build on our positive experience in 2007 and to promote the newly opened visitor centre, the trust has for some time been preparing to mount a two-day re-enactment in the summer of 2014. However, following an approach by VisitScotland and the homecoming team, we have been pleased to consider expanding the trust’s event in both scope and duration and subsequently to agree to do so. The event will now take place over three days.

We suspect that there may have been some confusion as a result of media reporting. The trust’s re-enactment has become conflated with the wider homecoming programme and with prior circumstances concerning clan involvement in it. A newspaper report erroneously suggested that the battle of Bannockburn re-enactment would not go ahead if Government financial support was not forthcoming. The headline attached to a later report indicated that public money was to be used to bail out the event. Neither report was correct. The re-enactment would have gone ahead irrespective of any financial support from Government agencies. However, with the £250,000 of support now offered through EventScotland, Creative Scotland and Scotland’s food and drink industry division, we are delighted to be able to extend the trust’s event by one day and to add significantly more content in terms of the promotion of Scottish produce, literature and song and the provision of space and activities for the clan societies and organisations.

This exciting programme means that the event will now be promoted as a signature event within the homecoming 2014 programme. The additional funds allow the trust to expand the event on a cost-neutral basis, but the lion’s share of the cost—something in the order of £500,000—remains with the trust. Those costs will be met through ticket sales, concessions and the sale of merchandise. Any profits made from the latter elements will be reinvested to help meet the costs of conservation that the trust as a charity has to bear for the benefit of the nation’s heritage.

The detailed programming of the event and the business plan on which it is to be based are being developed through a tendering process to appoint a professional event organiser to take the re-enactment forward. At this point we have identified a preferred contractor—Unique Events—and we are in the process of finalising costs before making a formal appointment.

Branding the event as a battle re-enactment gives it a focus, but its overall scope and content will be considerably broader. Certainly there will be large-scale battle sessions in which the highly professional Clanranald Trust for Scotland will lead a vivid and historically accurate impression of what the conflict would have been like, along with other re-enactors from across the world. That is not to celebrate violence and death but to do justice to those on both sides, most of whom were ordinary farmers and peasants called to war by their feudal masters, who fought and died on this site, and to give some idea of the ordeal that they underwent.

However, most of the event’s content is taken up with other activities. The re-enactors will give small-scale weapons demonstrations and will create an encampment in which visitors can see what routine life was like for campaigning soldiers and all those who followed them. As I have tried to convey, there will be much else to see, do, sample and experience. People will enjoy the spectacle and entertainment, which is also an excellent means of engaging people in the historical reality, tackling some myths about the battle and the era in which it was fought while retaining a sense of dignity and commemoration.

We aim to keep ticket prices at the most reasonable levels possible, with a charge of around £40 for a family ticket for an entire day’s entertainment. That compares very favourably with a family trip to the cinema, for example. Tickets will be sold in advance, and we expect to have up to 15,000 people come to Bannockburn on each of the three days of the event.

We are grateful for the Government support that has been provided for both the centre and the re-enactment event, and also for the excellent co-operation and support that we have received from Historic Scotland, VisitScotland, Creative Scotland, Scotland Food & Drink and Stirling Council. We see the project as an investment in Scotland’s heritage that will pay dividends in learning and understanding, and in the direct and indirect economic benefits that will be generated for the area by visitors coming to Stirling from far and wide.

The National Trust for Scotland is a charity. It is not a party-political organisation—we work with all elected representatives. There can be no denying the central importance of Bannockburn in shaping Scotland’s history, nor the fact that 2014 is indeed the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn—and that the occasion deserves commemoration. The trust’s main interest is to ensure that that significance is understood in its context: the interplay of international events and cultural mores that led up to the battle, and what happened afterwards. That is why the focus of the project is on a visitor centre and the interpretative materials that it will contain. After the opening ceremony and the re-enactment event are over, it is the centre that will endure to tell the story of Bannockburn.

The trust will focus on historical fact and providing a unique visitor experience. It is for others to make wider interpretations and pronouncements. However, it is interesting to note that constitutional change is now dealt with through debate and the political process, rather than through warfare and the loss of life. That is perhaps the most apt lesson that anyone can take away from this important site.

Thank you, Mr McAllister. I am looking forward to the event already, following your sales pitch. I am sure that my children will enjoy it even more.

I am sure they will.

You have raised quite a number of issues that we would like to explore in questioning. Before that, I will introduce Caroline Packman, who I know wishes to say something by way of introduction.

VisitScotland is delighted to be working with the National Trust for Scotland, Stirling Council and the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs to develop the Bannockburn event. As committee members will probably know, the homecoming programme was launched at the end of last month, and more than 100 events are already in the programme.

Twenty fourteen will be a very exciting year for Scottish tourism. The homecoming programme is designed to extend the benefits of the Commonwealth games and the Ryder cup by offering a year-long programme of events. It is designed to attract more people to Scotland, to give them more reasons to visit and to extend their stay.

The programme for 2014 builds on the focus years that the tourism industry has been delivering since 2010. The themes for the year are food and drink, active, creative and natural, with the added theme of ancestry. The year will be supported by a £5.5 million events and marketing programme, which will showcase the best that Scotland has to offer around the world.

VisitScotland is delighted to be including the Bannockburn event within the programme. It will be a signature event for homecoming and, as such, it will form a key moment in the year-long programme. We are already promoting it through VisitScotland’s marketing teams. It was Scotland week earlier this month in North America. At VisitScotland’s expo last week, Bannockburn and the overall homecoming programme were enthusiastically welcomed by more than 800 travel operators from around the world.

Twenty fourteen will be a terrific year for the visitor economy in Scotland—a year when we will welcome the world—and Bannockburn will be a key part of that success story.

10:15

Thank you. We would like to explore quite a number of issues in the questioning, particularly the funding arrangements, which Mr McAllister touched on; governance issues, given that public money is involved; how the benefits of the year of homecoming spend can be spread beyond the Bannockburn event to different parts of Scotland; the risks; and how we will measure outcomes.

We have a large panel today and there is quite a lot of ground to cover, so I would be grateful if members could keep their questions short and to the point; and it would be helpful if answers could be similarly short and to the point. I ask members to direct questions to particular panel members rather than ask them generally of the panel. However, if a panel member wants to respond to a question or come in on a discussion, just catch my eye and I will bring you in when time allows. In that way, we will get through the business as expeditiously as we can.

I will start off with a point of clarification for Mr McAllister, given what he told us earlier. On the Bannockburn event, you said in the written submission that you gave us a few weeks ago:

“The National Trust for Scotland’s Board of Trustees will ... make the final decision on whether or not this event can proceed. Trustees will need to be satisfied that the Trust will not be put at financial or reputational risk. This decision is expected by the end of April 2013.”

I take it from what you told us earlier that that decision has now been taken.

That is correct.

So the event is definitely to proceed and the trustees are happy with that.

Yes. Pete Selman and I are keeping our board informed of progress and the detailed discussions on the creation of the event and so on. The board has raised a number of concerns about risk and the development of the proposals, so we are reporting regularly on those. However, we have our board’s approval for the event.

Thank you for clarifying that.

Just to broaden the discussion for a moment to homecoming 2014, one of the key aspects of homecoming 2009 was its ability to attract the Scottish diaspora, particularly from North America. We have heard quite a lot of comment, some of which is in the written submissions, to the effect that the battle re-enactment at Bannockburn may not attract people to Scotland in the way that a clan gathering event would, such as with the 2009 gathering. Are you satisfied that the Bannockburn re-enactment, particularly given its timing quite early in the season, will attract visitors from North America to the extent that a clan gathering would? I ask Malcolm MacGregor to address that first, because he made that point in his written submission on behalf of the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs.

Thank you, convener. First, it is a privilege for me to be here in the Parliament with your committee to discuss these matters and to speak as best I can on behalf of the clans.

On the question that you posed, one has to think back to the 2009 event, which succeeded in bringing a lot of people from overseas. Much of what is in the pipeline for 2014 has to bear that in mind. The international gathering of 2009 was regarded overseas as a great success. Most of the diaspora, or the overseas Scots, wanted to do the whole thing again.

A battle re-enactment with a clan element does not have the same attraction to the overseas Scots as an international clan gathering—there is no doubt about that. However, in my view, the re-enactment plans for Bannockburn are superb. When we in the standing council go to America later this year, we will do our best to promote the event. It is slightly late in the day, because the overseas team needs a good two years’ lead time. However, we are where we are and we will do our best to promote the event.

What is your reasonable expectation of the numbers that might come from North America to the Bannockburn event?

That is an extremely difficult question to answer. It depends on how many clan groups are able to marshal their members in America and Australia to bring them over. I can do an assessment of that, but I would not want to put a figure on it.

In 2009, the figure was something like 17,000. I am looking for the figure for 2007—

Perhaps we can come back to that in a moment.

The figure was around 17,000 in 2009, but I do not believe that it will be matched in 2014 because of the lack of lead time.

You said in your written submission that the North American clans would usually require two years’ prior notice of an event, and you are concerned that there is not enough time to attract them in large numbers.

If you want the large numbers from America, you need that lead time, without question.

Bannockburn is not the only event in the homecoming programme that will appeal to clans. There are a number of events that have a specific appeal to clans—for example, the Inverness highland meeting; the Dunfermline Bruce festival; the Aboyne highland games; and the Piping Live! festival. There are more than 50 events in the overall programme that have links to the ancestral scene.

We have been working closely with the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs, the American Scottish Foundation and the Council of Scottish Clans and Associations in North America to develop the programme with them. We are also aware of around 30 other clan events that will be happening in Scotland in 2014; although those events are not open to the public as such, we are still delighted that those clans will be making the journey back to Scotland in 2014.

Obviously the event will benefit from being one of a number of events throughout a whole packaged year of homecoming. As event organisers, we are acutely aware that the ability to draw visitors in sufficient numbers to make the event a success depends on us getting both the product and the pricing right, and marketing the event effectively. That is where we have been concentrating all our efforts.

As David McAllister spelled out to you, the nature of the event is very broad ranging. It benefits also from having a powerful theme—the Bannockburn name—and, along with that, a centrepiece of re-enactment events that are tied in with the new visitor centre and the excitement around that. To a certain extent, it is already starting to pre-sell itself, and we already have a healthy level of inquiries.

The pricing is also quite important to us. As David McAllister mentioned, affordability that is consistent with the family audience as the core focus of the event is really important to us, but the event is open to all. It is open to Scots and visitors from near and far, including clan members who are in Scotland at the time or who are coming to Scotland for a broader-ranging event. We are targeting a range of markets, we are confident in the product and in the brand, and we believe that working with our partners on the marketing will have a high impact.

I have one question for Caroline Packman before I bring in Chic Brodie and Rhoda Grant. Malcolm MacGregor mentioned that 17,000 people came in 2009. Have you made an assessment of what a reasonable expectation is for numbers from North America for 2014?

In total, we are expecting around 70,000 additional visitors as a result of the homecoming programme. We have not yet broken down—

Sorry, is that seven—

It is 70,000 in total.

Seventy thousand.

But we have not yet broken that down by market.

As we heard earlier, we have a long time to go in terms of people planning their travel for the summer of next year. Do you feel that you are sufficiently focused on the North American market and on who is going to be coming across?

The North American market is our main overseas market, but one of the key differences between homecoming 2014 and homecoming 2009 is that, this time round, ancestry is not the main theme but one of five themes. Broadening out the themes means that we have a broader appeal to different markets. The United Kingdom market in particular is likely to have more reason to visit Scotland in the year of homecoming than it did last time around. The North American market is extremely important to us but it is not the only market that we are targeting.

Good morning. Thank you for your earlier contributions.

I ask Caroline Packman what she knows about the lion of Alba.

The lion of Alba is a sculpture that is being developed by Carrick community council. About six weeks ago, I was at a meeting with the organisers, which was also attended by representatives from Historic Scotland and Creative Scotland. We discussed ways that we can work with the community council to progress that project and several others in the region.

It is encouraging to know that. I, too, met members of Carrick community council six weeks ago. They were frustrated because they wanted the Bruce trail that they are creating and the lion of Alba sculpture at Turnberry, where Bruce was born, to be part of the overall programme, so I am encouraged that we have had the meeting.

How much of your marketing programme is spent on the homecoming events?

The total homecoming budget is £5.5 million—

The total budget for VisitScotland is £59 million. How much of that is being spent on the homecoming events?

Within the homecoming budget of £5.5 million, £1.75 million is specifically for marketing. In addition, that will be supported through VisitScotland’s core marketing budget. All the activities conducted by VisitScotland from 2013 into 2014 will weave in the homecoming message, just as VisitScotland has been doing for the year of natural Scotland. Therefore, we have £1.75 million specifically for homecoming activity, but that will be supported by other activities.

Is that enough?

We feel confident that with that amount we can generate the rate of return on investment target of 8:1.

Johanna Boyd, why did you buy the intellectual property rights to the gathering?

I was not elected when the decisions about that were taken. A decision was taken under the previous administration to take steps to secure that position. Subsequent meetings and discussions have led to the decision not to hold a major clan gathering event but instead to have an enhanced visitor experience on the Bannockburn weekend.

I have one last question. What I have heard sounds promising. Is the infrastructure ready and capable of handling the number of people we are talking about?

Yes. Our on-going discussions with our preferred provider, Unique Events, have confirmed that. Last week, we set up a number of sub-groups that will be working with representatives of the council, the police and others specifically on those planning issues. That is very much our focus at the moment. Broadly speaking, yes, the infrastructure will be there for the numbers we are talking about. We have had discussions about parking provision. Stirling Council indicates that it will support us with a coach service running from the city centre to the event for the three days, for which we are very grateful. All those matters are being looked at in considerable detail.

The deputy convener will be asking more questions on infrastructure in a moment.

From the evidence this morning, it seems that the Bannockburn re-enactment was always planned to happen, yet it is very late in the day to be promoting that as the anchor event to the homecoming year—so much so that we may lose out on our American market. Why were those decisions taken so late as to almost spike our own guns, if you will pardon the pun?

The Bannockburn project came through our funded application process, which opened in July 2012 and ran until September 2012. All the other applications—we had 166 in total—went through the robust and rigorous evaluation process. As part of that, it was identified that Bannockburn had the potential to become one of several signature projects within the overall programme. At that point, we began to work with the National Trust for Scotland to develop the plans and extend the activity around the project.

On the timescale, we still have more than a year to go before the event. Especially considering that we are targeting a range of markets with the event, I feel confident that there is still plenty of time to maximise the benefits of the event and attract the maximum numbers to it.

10:30

But we have been told in evidence that it is late in the day and that we should have had events at least a year ago to promote the events abroad and maximise them. The gathering and the fallout from it were controversial. Surely people should have been thinking way back then about finding an anchor event that we could promote from that point forward. It seems to me that lessons were not learned and suddenly we are scrabbling about at the last minute, picking on an event that was going to happen anyway and trying to make it iconic to pull the whole thing together. Why was this not thought of earlier?

I was not in post at the time, but my understanding is that initially the gathering at Stirling was intended to be the anchor, but then due to the business case studies that were undertaken, a business decision was taken, based on the risks and benefits, that that would not be pursued. By that time, the Bannockburn application had come in to us, and the decision was made to expand on that as an alternative, but not a direct replacement, for a gathering.

We heard that the Bannockburn event is going ahead and that a number of the events are just normal, annual events. How many of the events for the year of homecoming are unique to it?

Within the overall homecoming, as it stands, about 40 per cent of the events are new and about 60 per cent are enhancements of existing events. That is a deliberate decision, because we do not want to help to create events that simply last for one year and then are not sustainable. We want to create a homecoming legacy and ensure that we build capacity within the events industry in Scotland for the long term.

It would be helpful for the committee to get a list of which events are new and which are enhanced.

Certainly.

I understand that you might not have that with you today.

I have a question for David McAllister about the event itself. I understand that there is a dispute about where the battle of Bannockburn took place—people have different views on that. What steps have you taken to ensure that the event is authentic and that nothing that you do will interfere with what could be an historic site that has not been validated at present?

There is much debate, much of which is very healthy. We put together a high-powered academic panel from the outset of the work to take forward a project at Bannockburn, and we are using it to verify, test and debate the events of 1314. There is no consensus, but there are general themes. We know that the site that we look after was the site of the Bruce encampment and is where he placed his standard. Certainly, the second day of battle ranged over a vastly wider area in Stirling, and there is debate about where the main events happened. However, there is no doubt that the site that we look after has been the site of commemoration and the site where monuments have been placed from the 1820s onwards, and it has built its own significance through that role in commemorating the events.

We have part of the battle site and we have done a lot of work to ensure that all our interpretative materials, which we will showcase in the new centre, are as accurate as possible.

We have also built in the chance to change. If new information arises, we will incorporate it. There is an interactive battle experience in which people can try to win the battle of Bannockburn. We are able to test new theories on that. You will all need to come and try it—it is really good. If there is another theory about the battle, we can try it on the model. It is a strategy gaming thing that we will be developing. We can test theories on it, but we will show what we believe to be the best consensus on the events.

We are taking the same approach with the re-enactment. We are engaging with our lead re-enactors, Clanranald, and Unique Events, which is one of Scotland’s premier event organisers. We will make the re-enactment elements of the event as authentic as possible and try to remove some of the “Braveheart”-type elements that we might otherwise have been tempted to include.

But what steps are you taking to protect other potential sites? There are concerns that what we know is very limited. There are people who say that the battle actually took place elsewhere. Those areas are being built on and changed and there is a fair amount of concern about things moving on while we do not have a definitive position.

We are engaged in a lot of archaeological research. Throughout this summer, we will be doing a series of exploratory digs on other sites. We have engaged with the BBC to make a two-part archaeology series in the lead-up to the battle. That will be aired before the anniversary in 2014. Our academic panel is working with Tony Pollard, Neil Oliver and the BBC’s archaeology unit. There is a lot of activity planned to identify potential sites. Included in our £9.1 million project is quite a lot of additional archaeological work and searches for other evidence.

The BBC programme will include a fantastic dig your back garden weekend. A lot of houses have been built in Stirling since 1314 and we want to engage with a number of householders to see whether there is anything in their back gardens.

Hopefully they will not dig up any bodies.

It would be great to find something because we have found very little evidence. For example, we did not find a knight when we were building the car park. One of the interesting facts about the battle was that the site was picked clean afterwards. Everyone seems to agree that the spoils were removed. We have found no mass graves. It would be great to find something in the next 12 months.

Mr Selman, did you want to say something?

David McAllister has covered the answers in full.

Before we move on, I return to Rhoda Grant’s point about the timing. There is an issue here. As Malcolm MacGregor said earlier, we are short on time for marketing the re-enactment, particularly to North America. Much of the reason for that was the cancellation of the gathering by Stirling Council. Was there a breakdown in communication between Stirling Council and the Scottish Government on who was doing what?

Perhaps I can come in at this point to indicate that, as has been mentioned, an exercise was undertaken to establish a business case for the clan gathering. It showed a potential deficit from the running of such an event of the order of about £250,000.

At that stage, conversations were taking place between elected members and officials at the council, along with Fergus Ewing and others at the Scottish Government. It was felt that an enhanced event—essentially an extra day at the battle of Bannockburn—would avoid the financial and reputational risks that were being flagged up.

There has been misreporting in the press, saying that Stirling Council pulled the plug. I want to make it absolutely clear that the decision was reached by consensus. It was mutually agreed between the Scottish Government and Stirling Council, so it is simply incorrect to state that Stirling Council somehow pulled the plug on anything.

I also ought to make it clear that taking that course of action was a decision that achieved cross-party support within the council, so it was supported by our opposition as well. Indeed, a joint statement was issued highlighting the positive programme of events that will be taking place in Stirling in 2014.

Essentially, Stirling Council’s involvement in the communications was limited to the joint statement that went out from the council and the Scottish Government. Any other communications, such as those with North America when various visits were taking place to discuss these issues with the clans, were certainly not the responsibility of—or within the remit of—Stirling Council. I hope that that assists in clarifying the chain of events.

Thank you for that. The follow-up question—which is not so much for you as it is for Caroline Packman, to get the Scottish Government perspective—is whether that decision should have been taken earlier, so that we had more lead-in time to build up a replacement.

Possibly, in an ideal world, but we are where we are. We have a sound proposal on the table and we can go forward and market that confidently. Certainly, the lead time might be too short for some of the major clan groups, but we have already had a strong expression of interest in the Bannockburn event from clan societies. We have had expressions of interest in participating from about 30 to 40 clans. We are pleased with that and clearly the Bannockburn event will be one of the key projects that we will promote in all our marketing materials.

I wish that the world was ideal; it would be great if it was. I fully appreciate that, given the circumstances, a big decision had to be made by the council together with the Scottish Government. There are challenges, but the opportunities are significant. For what it is worth, I congratulate the council and the Government on how they have dealt with the matter and have worked together. It has been a good exercise.

I want to ask one question on a wider scale, convener, if that is okay, and one question on a parochial issue.

Okay, carry on.

On the Stirling situation, Johanna, we have heard all about what is happening around Bannockburn. The question is how we now build on that for the whole homecoming experience for the area. I know that a number of events are being looked at, including events to do with hogmanay, making the Spirit of Stirling whisky festival larger, food and drink festivals, angling festivals, and building on the Bloody Scotland crime-writing festival. Do you feel that you are getting adequate support—in terms of the funding that is available—from EventScotland and VisitScotland to ensure that all those events can happen at the level that you need them to happen?

Also, Caroline, I was lucky enough to be with you for part of tartan week a couple of weeks ago and I was involved in a discussion with VisitBritain about how it can contribute to the whole homecoming experience and attract people to Scotland and market Scotland more successfully. It would be useful for committee members to understand what role VisitBritain will play in this, bringing additional resources—not just the resources from VisitScotland—to the party.

Both of those areas are of interest to me.

I will go first—thank you for the question. We certainly have an exciting programme that is built around the battle of Bannockburn as a signature event. However, as you have highlighted, we are focusing on a programme of about 10 events. A working group within the council reports to a committee.

As has been indicated, we sit on various working groups to do with the Bannockburn weekend and the Ryder cup, so we get a cross-section of information. In addition, we have on-going discussions with VisitScotland and directly with Fergus Ewing. Those have been positive and useful.

We are conducting a cost benefit analysis of the various events. Some of them already have some funding—the Bloody Scotland event that you mentioned, for example. I know that there is a desire to have beefed-up hogmanay celebrations. Traditionally, the book-ends of the year have been run at a cost to the council. That is the sort of event that we are looking to discuss with the Scottish Government and VisitScotland. There is a desire to enhance those existing events to ensure that as much benefit as possible comes to the Stirling area and its people. We have a meeting scheduled for 15 May with Fergus Ewing to discuss such matters.

10:45

Mr McAllister, you said, I think, that you hope that people can immerse themselves in the events and can replicate a sort of 14th-century experience. You have made great play of the fact that you have got award-winning architects and so on in order to enable some of that to happen. Has any work been done to ensure that it will be fully inclusive? For example, is there a digital British Sign Language infrastructure for people who are deaf or audio description for people who are blind and partially sighted?

We are covering all of those points. The trust tries to be open to everyone, which includes access for all. We have been working hard with the Stirling access forum at every stage of the development of the new building. We will have hearing loops for the hard of hearing and we are working on programmes for—

Have you gone further than just having hearing loops? Hearing loops should be standard anyway, under the legislation. I am talking about inclusive measures to ensure that people are able to have that immersive experience, to use your term. BSL or audio description would help in that regard. There are people who are deaf—who have no hearing—for whom a loop is not accessible; and there are people who are blind who perhaps cannot use the digital touchscreens and so on. Have you considered those aspects?

As I said, we are considering all aspects and are working with the Stirling access forum to cover all of those areas.

Final decisions on some aspects have yet to be made, but I will take on board your point about BSL.

Perhaps you could talk to some of the national organisations, such as Action on Hearing Loss and the Royal National Institute of Blind People.

We have done that through the access forum, which is the way in which we normally operate.

Johanna Boyd, what infrastructure barriers exist around the Bannockburn event and other events?

Those matters are being discussed in the various working groups. I was reminded of the big noise concert that we put on in the Raploch last June, at which there were around 7,000 or 8,000 attendees, including me and my young daughter. The event was smooth and free-flowing, which gives us some comfort about our ability to ensure that these things will come off as they ought to.

On infrastructure barriers, there has already been mention of the shuttle bus that we hope will be running. I know that you are not directly concerned with the Ryder cup, but there will be a park-and-ride facility for that, and we sit on the Ryder cup steering group, which discusses those issues.

There has been discussion about improvements to on and off slip roads on the M9. Stirling Council has had a long-term aspiration to improve overall the flow of traffic and create a gateway to Stirling. That would also benefit the national park and arguably would constitute a piece of infrastructure legacy for Stirling.

So you are relatively comfortable that everything will be in place including the park-and-ride and parking facilities. Are you having discussions with ScotRail, for example, about additional trains or are you considering additional services such as shuttle buses from the train station?

Are you speaking specifically about the Bannockburn event?

Yes.

As has been mentioned, I am keen to avoid one of the criticisms that is often expressed in relation to visitors to the castle, which is that people are bussed in to visit the castle and then are bussed out again, so that the transitional spend is not maximised to the extent that it could be. With the events taking place at Bannockburn, we are keen to see that transitional spend and, indeed, to ensure that visitors to Stirling experience all of Stirling and everything that it has to offer. We will do everything that we can to ensure that the infrastructure exists to bring people into the city centre.

What role is VisitScotland playing to ensure that our hotels, guest houses, bed and breakfasts and other facilities are ready for the Bannockburn event?

VisitScotland partnerships team has already conducted a number of workshops across the country. We also plan to hold an industry conference on 26 September specifically on the events that are happening in 2014 and to ensure that everyone in the tourism industry is ready to welcome visitors to the homecoming events, the Ryder cup and the Commonwealth games.

I would like to offer a perspective as a client, an investor in tourism infrastructure in Stirling and from my professional background working with Scottish Enterprise and the Scottish Development Agency in developing tourism products and strategies in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee.

This is Stirling’s time. For so long, Stirling has been a day visitor destination for people who are staying for a longer period in Scotland’s larger urban conurbations, or who are passing through on their way further north. Before the NTS and our board of trustees decided to invest in a new visitor centre, we thought long and hard about whether it would be sustainable in the longer term. We are equally interested in and committed to working in partnership with all the agencies to make sure that visitors will not just come in the first 12 months out of curiosity to see the new battle of Bannockburn visitor centre, but will come in repeated numbers.

To do so, we are just as interested in developing the whole infrastructure of Stirling the city and its outlying districts, with the range of hotel accommodation that we can now see coming out of the ground, the development of the park-and-ride facility and investment in a range of new attractions—from Historic Scotland and the castle through to the Wallace monument, the presentation of the old town and ourselves, trading heavily on the name Bannockburn and the marketing impact that it can have.

This is very much a joint initiative, with investors and public agencies working with the local authority and—let us not forget—local communities, who will get the jobs and incomes that spin off from the events. As I said, this is Stirling’s time to put itself on the map as a must-see destination with a critical mass of facilities where people can come and stay for longer than they would if they were just touching base.

Lastly, is Stirling a possible location for the clan gathering in the future or do you believe that it currently does not have the infrastructure to support a clan gathering?

Is that question for me?

The question is for Mr MacGregor.

Stirling is a good location for a clan gathering. It has the historical background, with the castle, and there is the Bannockburn facility as well. In my opinion, the infrastructure is not as good as in some other places, such as Edinburgh—unsurprisingly, as it is a worldwide destination city. Having said that, people could stay in big numbers in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Perth and, indeed, certain places in Stirling. Stirling is at a good crossroads for the main Scottish destinations and it has a good feel to it with the castle in the background. In future, the enhanced visitor centre at Bannockburn will be another major attraction as well.

Does Johanna Boyd want to comment on that?

I want to add one comment that builds on the points I made before about the council’s long-standing desire to have the infrastructure around the on and off slip roads from the M9. The council also wants to see another piece of infrastructure brought into existence, which is an outside events space in the area of the Falleninch field that people would arrive at from those slip roads. As far as I am concerned, that would be a legacy for the people of Stirling and for any visitors to Stirling and a benefit from the year of homecoming and all of the events happening in 2014. Of course, there is a question of scale and that is a point that Malcolm MacGregor made in his submissions. However, it would be a space where events such as clan gatherings or outside concerts could be held with the fantastic draw of Stirling castle. Such a space could be another great draw for the city of Stirling and has been described as an ambition of all the partners sitting before the committee today.

To continue on that theme, in an ideal world the year of homecoming and the gathering would have coincided. It is unfortunate that they do not but, without blaming anyone, I see that that has not been possible. We seem to have years of homecoming every four years, so I assume that we will have one in 2018. Given some of the unfortunate aspects this time round, what lessons are there for the future to ensure that both events coincide?

At the moment there are no plans in place for future years of homecoming, so I cannot comment on that question. However, one lesson to be learned from this time round is that if there is to be another clan gathering, it must be led by the clans for the clans. That is what happened last time round. Government bodies must be in a position to support that, but the gathering must be an event that is led by the clans. They know what they want from an event such as the gathering and they can mobilise their networks to ensure the visitation at it.

That is a very interesting line of thought. Johanna Boyd is sitting next to Malcolm MacGregor. I suggest that maybe Ms Boyd should take the intellectual property rights out of her pocket and pass them over to Mr MacGregor right now. Would that solve the problem? [Interruption]

Order. Hold on a second. People should not be having conversations with the witnesses. Thank you.

I was suggesting that it was a good line of thought and that perhaps Ms Boyd should take the intellectual property rights out of her pocket and pass them to Mr MacGregor right now, then we would set the scene for things to happen in a better fashion in the future.

Malcolm, would you welcome taking on the intellectual property rights of the gathering?

11:00

I do not think that I would. Mr MacKenzie’s idea is interesting and if a good events company, such as the one that is dealing with Bannockburn 2014, could get its hands on the IP, analyse it and see what is really in it—I am not sure what is in it—the standing council could have an advisory role and we could take forward the international clan gathering concept.

I absolutely take on board what Caroline Packman has just said; there is a role for clans worldwide to think very carefully about the future—irrespective of whether or not there is a year of homecoming. There is clearly a demand from clan groups around the world to come to Scotland, in quite big numbers if one gets the marketing and lead time right, and they can be accommodated in various parts of Scotland.

That sort of concept and project could be taken forward and looked at on various levels. You could have an international clan gathering in one location, where it is held every five, six or seven years; you could vary the location; or you could have a combination of low-key international gatherings and then ramp it up every five years with a homecoming-style year.

It seems that there may be merit in you considering setting up a subsidiary and going for it.

Well, we are not a business. I do not think that it would be a good idea for the standing council to get too hands on with running gatherings, or to get its hands on the IP. We do not run events; what we are good at is advising and bringing people over from America and Australia, because many of us go to those places all the time.

Thank you.

On a separate line, I was a wee bit disturbed when Mr Selman mentioned the idea of tourism products. That always disturbs me. I will try to explain what I mean and tease out some of your thoughts.

I think that the NTS and other organisations deal with some aspects of our heritage in a way that is absolutely right. For instance, if I go to Finlaggan, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I get a similar experience when I go to Iona, when it is not too busy, and when I go to Columba’s mother’s grave. I somehow do not get that, unfortunately, when I go to Culloden, because of how things have been done there; it is not quite there. I have talked to a lot of people about the problem. It is a difficult concept and maybe a difficult thing to get right.

I therefore have a concern about the visitor centre and the legacy. I accept that you have chosen award-winning and very good architects, but will you be able to foster and maintain respect for the spirit of the place that will engender for visitors an experience that goes beyond the immediate Bannockburn celebration or commemoration?

That is a fundamental question for our business. I make no apologies for using business vocabulary, because we are in the heritage business and we have to be able to generate sufficient funds—particularly as a charitable enterprise—to look after the properties that are in our care. However, you are absolutely right: the product that we are nursing is something that is deep in the soul and psyche of Scotland. It is that sense of place that, in all our properties, we are trying to bring out by telling stories imaginatively and creatively, while not losing the sense of soul.

Clearly, it is down to the individual; when I go to Culloden, I feel very proud that we have maintained the sanctity of the battlefield and its atmosphere. Mike MacKenzie talked about the hairs on the back of his neck: by gum, I sense that at Culloden. The sense of place is by no means disturbed by the interpretation of the site and the subtle architecture, which tells a story, sets the context and adds dimensions that bring visitors there in the first place. The balance at Culloden is pretty much spot on.

However, there is an on-going challenge, whether we are talking about giving people a sense of place in an historic house that nobody visits, or about a mountain landscape where we do not need any artificial interpretation because the place speaks for itself. It is perhaps what we do not do that makes the difference.

I accept that there are particular challenges with battlefields. It is a real challenge to get back a sense of place in areas that have been developed over time. This is a theme that I have been exploring, and it is not just my view that you do that very well in some places, but not quite so well in others.

On relevance to business, when I go to Finlaggan or Dunstaffnage castle, those places affect me in a way that means that I am far more likely to get my wallet out than I was when I visited Culloden.

I should say that Mike MacKenzie getting his wallet out is a very unusual occurrence.

I have one final comment to make. David McAllister mentioned the interpretation of the Bannockburn site and the sanctity of place. He reminded us that on the 650th anniversary there was the unveiling of the rotunda and the presentation of the flagpole—Her Majesty the Queen did the honours on that occasion. Part of the investment now tells an exciting story in a new bit of architecture, but in an understated sense. The style of the architecture is meant to draw the eye past it and on up the avenue towards the rotunda. When you get to the rotunda you see what the landscape architects are doing to remind us why the battle was fought there. The sightlines are designed to enhance the view of the castle as the point of destination for the approaching army and the view back to where it had come from. That is when it all begins to make sense—when the hairs start to come up on the back of the hand—and that is where we have, I think, got the balance correct.

I look forward to experiencing that. Thank you.

I have to say that anything will be a big improvement on what is there at the moment. I do not mean to insult the NTS, but what is there at the moment is a rather tired-looking building.

What is there at the moment is actually somewhere in between. I was there yesterday all day. We are conserving the monuments right now. Okay; work is going on—but the hairs are up on the back of the hand. As Pete Selman said, we are bringing dignity back. It is a landscape project; the battle was fought in that landscape. At the rotunda, you get a real sense of that. You are right that what has been there was not doing it, but what we are doing now will do it in spades.

In response to Mr MacKenzie’s question I want to make a small point about the overall historical offer that we think we have in Stirling for visitors. How do we get visitors who are coming to the castle or the Wallace monument to visit other sites through cross-ticketing, for example? We are very keen to work with the National Trust for Scotland and with Historic Scotland to find a way to get people who are coming to Stirling to visit more than one place and perhaps to spend a whole day, or ideally a couple of days, in the city to experience all the rich and diverse sites that we have to offer.

Given the issues that surrounded the gathering in Edinburgh in 2009, the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs says that we should not go ahead with another gathering until we have reimbursed the creditors who suffered losses from their involvement. Although the event that we are holding is not the same sort of event, it is clearly really important that it does well financially. What are the key aspects of ensuring the financial success of the event? David McAllister referred to 15,000 tickets per day for three days. Obviously you are comparing the pricing with a family trip to the cinema, and you are looking for a sell-out for three days. How confident are you that that will occur?

We work to a business plan, and there is some caution built into that. We and our board are comfortable that if we hit 75 per cent of the targets we will not make a loss. We would obviously like to sell all the tickets.

As Unique Events has pointed out to us, selling tickets is about the question, “Is this an event that we must go to?” We have to scale the event to attract the right number of visitors. All the marketing that we will be doing—we are piggybacking on the homecoming and other marketing initiatives—will be about selling tickets. That is what it comes down to—the success of the event is largely down to ticketing. We want to do most of that online, and we will be doing a deal with a ticketing provider for that. We hope to have tickets on sale towards the end of June. It might be slightly into July, but our aim is to have them available about a year in advance.

We are capturing interest on our battle of Bannockburn website through the call to arms page, where people can now register. We are doing the same with the travel trade. There is a huge amount of travel trade interest in the event and in Bannockburn as a whole, as was brought home to me last week at the expo.

Every effort is focused on selling the tickets. The content of the event that we are developing with Unique is interesting and exciting, and it is appropriate, too. It hits all the buttons for the homecoming. The whole package—the three days of activity and interest, with all sorts of interesting things going on—is what will sell the tickets.

Can I ask another question, convener?

Bruce Crawford has a supplementary, after which we can come back to you.

I was at the expo event at Stirling castle last week, which I thought was fantastic, with 800 people from all around the world there. I am an optimist. I think that we will sell out the event, no problem. I am more concerned that some of our friends from America might decide a bit later to come, but they may still turn up. Will there be enough tickets left for them? How will we ensure that the capacity is in place to allow visitors who turn up from other parts of the world to experience the events that will be going on? How do we manage that process?

We will be working with the clans to ensure that the message gets out through the appropriate channels—through Malcolm MacGregor. The message will get out to the Highland clans. We are in touch right now, and we are working closely together. There will be no doubt among the clans in America, Australia and elsewhere that we are asking them to come.

Good. I am glad of that.

You said that your target is 15,000 tickets per day. What is the maximum number that you could sell per day?

That comes down to the capacity of the site—we have discussed the number at length with Unique Events. I would not want the number to be more than 15,000, for health and safety reasons and so that we are able to cope with the event.

We obviously want to ensure that local businesses, hoteliers, restaurants and so on experience as many benefits as possible. In terms of Scotland more widely, many people will come for what is a very attractive event. Caroline Packman, I think, said that 30, and perhaps even up to 50, other clan events will be occurring elsewhere. You said that some of them will be closed, but we want to encourage as much direct engagement with Scots as possible. Can you give us a bit more information about that? Although we have a localised event, we want to benefit the islands, the east coast and the Borders as much as possible, too.

Absolutely. As the programme stands, with just over 100 events, there are already events taking place in every local authority area in Scotland. We expect that the number of events will grow significantly over the coming months. Part of the homecoming programme is the partner programme, whereby people in charge of events can register them not for financial support but for in-kind marketing and promotional support. Those tend to be the events that have a shorter lead-in time, which will continue to join the programme through the coming months and into 2014.

Regional spread has very much been one of the objectives in designing the homecoming programme, as well as a seasonal spread throughout the calendar year. Of the projects that we are providing financial assistance to, we have a lot of activity happening around hogmanay and winter festivals. Apart from that, we have a fairly even spread of funded programmes from March all the way through to October, because we do not want activity to be centred just on the summer months. Whatever the time of year people come to Scotland and wherever they want to travel, there will be events that they can participate in and enjoy.

11:15

Are you confident that the clans know what is going on and that there is constant liaison with them?

Yes.

I am happy with the liaison and the passing of information between the National Trust, VisitScotland, homecoming Scotland and EventScotland. The clans contribute very much to the local and regional economies. At the moment, we know of 35 clan gatherings that will take place in 2014 in the regions, which makes a big difference to those localities in terms of hotels, catering, transport, visiting heritage sites and so forth. The clans really come to life in their historical contexts in the regions.

Just to add to that, within the VisitScotland marketing channels, we have a database of 4,500 gatekeepers, which might be clan societies or associations, or Scottish interest groups such as the Scottish Official Highland Dancing Association. We are in regular contact with those who are on the database, which is another channel by which we can spread the word and encourage people to come back to Scotland. That is on top of our international consumer database, which has in excess of 1 million contacts. Those channels are very much in place and we will use them to spread the message about Bannockburn clan activities and, indeed, the homecoming programme as a whole.

Marco, do you have another question?

I had intended to ask about future gatherings, but I think that the issue has been well covered by other members. However, on Bruce Crawford’s earlier question about VisitBritain, I think that you skipped past that, convener, without getting an answer to it. I would be interested in hearing what involvement VisitBritain has had.

We work closely with VisitBritain in North America and other markets throughout the world. Our marketing teams are in close communication with VisitBritain, which has helped to amplify and extend the VisitScotland activities. However, it rests very much on the messages and materials that we design and ask VisitBritain to promote for us within the overall Britain umbrella.

I have two small questions. Twenty fourteen will be a very good year for Scotland in many ways, but particularly through the Bannockburn event, because it involves a great story. The famous marketing adage is that a brand that has a story to tell has meaning, and a brand that has meaning has impact and resonance. I am sure that even our welcome visitors from our neighbours down south will enjoy the story. Twenty fourteen is very important and we want to bring the visitors back.

I want to focus on two particular issues. My first question is for Mr Selman. What contact has there been with Keep Scotland Beautiful in respect of cleaning up the litter problem that we have in some places? Perhaps Johanna Boyd can answer that question as well—specifically in relation to Stirling.

The second question is for Caroline Packman. How are we going to capture information about visitors’ names and addresses? What marketing follow-up do you see happening to encourage people to come back to a litter-free, beautiful Scotland?

Johanna—how are you going to keep Stirling litter free?

That is a very good question, on which I have recently had discussions. I am very conscious that a hugely significant part of the visitor experience is what is immediately seen. I therefore think that a key job needs to be done regarding the piece of infrastructure that we discussed earlier and which we are very keen to see, which would provide us with a gateway to Stirling. It is crucial that all the gateways—all the approaches whereby we arrive at our destination—are welcoming, vibrant and litter free. As an absolute basic, they ought to be environmentally sound.

We can do interesting work with that involving our communities, which we have begun. It is about involving our communities in their own history and about communities taking civic pride in their areas. There are fairly basic things that we can do to get our city centre looking pristine—

Not just your city.

Of course. I mean all our city centres. If there are vacant units in the city, how are we dressing them and making the city look as good as it can do? You are right to say that it is not just about 2014. If people come and have a bad experience, they will not come back. We have to make the experience a positive one.

When you mentioned the IP I was reminded that we have a database from that. That is important to us in the context of our marketing.

There are two equally important strands to any marketing activity: acquisition and retention. We want to encourage visitors not just to come to Scotland once, but to come back—preferably, again and again.

During the previous homecoming we added almost 3,500 new names to our database. The opportunities for keeping in touch with people through email and social media are greater than they have ever been. We are very aware of that. We will be able to personalise our online communications to a much greater extent in the future, so people will be able to indicate their interests and preferences and we will be able to tailor communications accordingly and increase the chances of converting them to a visit.

Good. Thank you.

Mr Brodie asked about litter. Are you confident that infrastructure is in place for recycling at the Bannockburn event?

Yes. A whole section of the proposal to us from Unique Events is on recycling and being green, which nicely ties in to our green tourism aspirations for the new site. A whole section of the business plan is about how we take care of the site and encourage people to recycle what they leave.

And what they sell.

Indeed.

Thank you.

On Mr Brodie’s point about the future and recurring events, I reiterate that yearly gatherings often happen in individual clans, and sometimes they happen every three, four or five years, so there is therefore already infrastructure for rolling events. We are in discussions with the Scottish Government in respect of the Highland clans partnership, which is about funding, in a low-key way, some of the clan gatherings—starting in 2014, I hope—so that clans can get some basic funding for their transport, hotel bookings and so on. That is very much part of future planning, which we support.

May I make a small point on recycling? Stirling Council sits at the top of the tree of the 32 local authorities in relation to how much we recycle. We place high importance on the issue. At officer level, we will give any assistance we can to the National Trust for Scotland in that regard.

Thank you. I have two final questions, which are on issues that we have not covered to any great extent. The first is governance. The event is being run by the National Trust for Scotland, which is a private charity—albeit that it gets a substantial contribution from public funds. Who is ultimately responsible for the event’s success and for ensuring that public money is properly accounted for? How will you measure success? At the end of June 2014, how will we decide whether the event worked?

The NTS is responsible.

The NTS is in charge, but who will ensure that the public money is properly spent?

The NTS is the client and is working closely with its funders, as stakeholders and partners. At this point, we have commitments on funding and a preferred event manager, and we are doing the detailed planning in a co-ordinated and inclusive way. When we sign the contracts, which we will do between now and June, we will have thrashed out exactly what the measurables are in return for the funding, for example, from the food and drink industry. That will be targeted not at the event in its broadest sense, but at specific aspects. Those detailed measurables will be clear when we formally sign the contracts. I anticipate that, in keeping with all major investments and projects in the NTS, we will have a post-project evaluation, which will be for us internally and for our funders.

I sat on the Public Audit Committee when we did an inquiry into the gathering 2009. We produced a comprehensive report. I do not know whether you have seen it, but it contains important lessons on governance and accountability in relation to events that are privately run but with a public contribution.

In relation to the EventScotland funding contribution, as Mr Selman said we have for a number of months been working in close collaboration through every stage in the process. We are represented on the steering group and the working group for the Bannockburn project. As conditions of our funding, we have set key performance indicators and an event outcome report is required. Governance procedures are in place to ensure that the event generates the return on investment that we seek.

My final question is for Mr McAllister or Mr Selman. Mr Brodie said that 2014 is going to be a big year for Scotland. The event will, I think, take place less than 12 weeks before the referendum on Scottish independence in September 2014. How will you ensure that the event is not hijacked for political purposes?

The event is to mark the opening of the new visitor centre and the 700th anniversary of the battle, and that is what we are concentrating on. Security—at political, media or site level—is not entirely within our control. We are absolutely clear that the site will be under firm control. The close involvement of and liaison with the police and our partners mean that we have no issues or concerns in that regard. For many years, Bannockburn has been a gathering or assembly point for a wide range of individuals on the anniversary of the battle and we have learned how to cope with that. In terms of any other media mischief or whatever, we will enjoy the theatre along with everybody else.

Will people be permitted to do political campaigning during the event?

We will send them home to think again.

Some groups and individuals have been known to us for a long time. Indeed, we have made a point of cultivating a relationship with contacts in those groups. Dialogue on that is under way already. We are also working with the police in that regard. There is already an understanding that, if anybody wishes to do their own thing, the period of the event is not the time to do it and there are other ways in which they can behave and perform. There seems to be a genuine recognition and understanding of that.

You are actively taking steps to discourage or prevent people from campaigning on the site.

Dialogue is on-going with individuals who represent various groups that we know have had a long-standing interest in the name and the site. We have that under control.

As there are no more questions, I thank our witnesses very much for coming. The meeting has been comprehensive and lengthy; we have covered a lot of useful ground.

11:29 Meeting suspended.

11:37 On resuming—

We have a few moments before the Minister for Energy, Enterprise and Tourism is due to arrive. I propose that we move up item 5 on the agenda to review the evidence that we have heard—and do so in private. When the minister appears, we can go back to item 3. Are members happy with that approach?

Members indicated agreement.

11:37 Meeting continued in private.

11:50 Meeting continued in public.