The next item is members' bills and substitution. We discussed the matter before at some length, and we agreed that the member in charge of a bill should not be a member of the committee that considers it. A substitute from their party should be found, but only for the agenda items on the bill.
I do not think that the point is that ministers should not sit on committees, although I am not averse to our considering that. However, when ministers take through Executive bills, the same rules should apply to them. In Wales, there has been some benefit from ministers sitting on committees. We do not have that system in Scotland, but we might want to try it in future. We should not rule it out. However, ministers should be treated in the same way as any other member of the Parliament in relation to bills.
All right.
There is some benefit in having members of the initiating committee on the ad hoc committee because that helps with the passage of the bill, but if we are serious about committee bills having the same level of scrutiny as other bills, members of the initiating committee probably should not be on the ad hoc committee. The ad hoc committee should be made up of members who have not considered the proposal in detail.
That is right in theory, but I wonder whether it would work well in practice. We are saying that one member of a committee should be excluded for certain items of business, but if we then potentially exclude up to half of what could be a committee—
For a committee bill, we create a whole new committee—
I understand that. You are saying that, for stage 2, you want a new committee that is entirely new to the issue.
Yes.
Is that practical?
In general terms, the ad hoc committee sits in judgment on the views that were expressed by the initiating committee. It has a quasi-judicial role. It is almost like the situation with planning: it is important that one does not have somebody from the initial committee whose job it is to go on to the ad hoc committee to campaign for the views that the initial committee expressed. For that reason, there is good cause to say that there should be a completely fresh look.
I support that. Obviously, the convener of the initiating committee can be the member in charge of the bill and can give evidence to the ad hoc committee on the various issues. Other members of the initiating committee can attend meetings of the ad hoc committee, just as they can attend any other committee. I think that I have been persuaded that a complete separation of the initiating committee and the ad hoc committee would be a good thing. Is that a general view?
I think that we agree on all those points.
Meeting continued in private until 12:47.
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