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Chamber and committees

Public Petitions Committee, 16 Jun 2009

Meeting date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009


Contents


Current Petitions


Independent Midwifery Services (PE1052)

The Convener:

Agenda item 2 is consideration of current petitions. PE1052, by Jayne Heron, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to promote the services of independent midwives and to ensure that such services continue to be available to pregnant women in Scotland. The petition has been before us on at least two occasions. Do members have any issues to raise or address?

There seems to have been a bit of arguing to and fro between various organisations. Has a meeting happened yet between the Government and the petitioner, as we requested?

Not as far as we are aware.

In that case, would it be appropriate to wait until such time as that has happened? We have an indication that a meeting will be held, but we cannot make progress until we know the outcome of that meeting.

Do members accept that recommendation and agree to ask the clerks to pursue the issue and find out whether a meeting has been arranged?

Members indicated agreement.


Scottish Prison Population (Catholics) (PE1073)

PE1073, by Tom Minogue, calls on the Parliament to investigate and establish the reasons for the apparently disproportionate number of Catholics in Scottish prisons. The petition has been before us several times. Do members have any comments?

Bill Butler:

I am informed that the Cabinet Secretary for Justice has said that the Government does not intend to do further research on the subject. However, perhaps the committee might consider asking academics who work in the area whether further research should be undertaken on what seems, on the face of it, to be a disproportionate number of Catholics and Muslims in the prison population and, if so, what the scope of that research should be. Such academics might include Professor Andrew Coyle and Professor Gill McIvor.

Nigel Don:

I concur with Bill Butler. At Justice Committee meetings, we have heard interesting evidence from academics on sentencing issues, which are not totally unrelated to the petition. People out there might have something useful to tell us. Such a request might also excite academics who do not know about the subject. If we as a society do not know anything about the situation, we probably should do. The academics might well be the people to examine the subject for us.

The Convener:

As is obvious, we face the summer recess. We can ask the clerks to discuss with SPICe the scoping of research and to come back to us. If we want to, we can make the decision in principle over the internet and then explore the options.

The key issue is putting the searchlight on the right areas. It has been easy to say, "We really don't know—a series of other social, environmental and economic factors results in the situation," but that is so wide that we cannot drill down. One or two folk in the academic world might be using new models of research, but you and I do not know that. We will discuss with research folk in SPICe who is worth approaching, on the principle of what is reasonable under SPICe's budget for research.

We are happy with that. I will ask Fergus Cochrane to communicate with committee members about what we can do next. If we have approval on that, we can pursue the matter. When we return after the recess, perhaps we will have a timescale for getting information back.


Local Museums (PE1083)

The Convener:

PE1083, by John Arthur, calls on the Parliament to urge the Government to support the creation of local museums, such as the proposed Leith museum. Several individuals—particularly Malcolm Chisholm, as the constituency member—have taken a keen interest in the issue. I have managed to get it out of my clerk that he is a Leither, so he has had to make an informal declaration of interest.

I ask Malcolm Chisholm to comment on the petition, to which he has spoken before.

Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab):

I hope that members will keep the petition open. Since the committee discussed the petition briefly about six months ago, quite a lot of progress has been made. Robin Harper, who I am sure will speak in a moment, and I were at a well-attended meeting in Leith recently at which detailed plans for the development of a Leith museum were presented. As members know from previous discussions, the hope is that the museum will be located in the Leith customs house. That building is owned by National Museums Scotland, which has a clear connection with public authorities and the Government.

I know that the committee has written to the Scottish Government and National Museums Scotland before but, given the massive support in Leith for a museum and given that the plans for a museum have advanced significantly in the past six months, I hope that the committee will agree to keep the petition open and to remain in dialogue about it with National Museums Scotland and the Scottish Government.

Robin Harper:

This is a sort of chicken-and-egg situation. To get funding, the museum must be accredited by the Scottish Museums Council. However, the Leith museum is still just an idea. Therefore, it cannot be accredited, so it cannot get funding from the SMC. Actors will know about a similar problem with getting Equity cards: they cannot get an Equity card unless they have a job, and they cannot get a job unless they have an Equity card.

I would like to keep the petition open, and I think that we should write to a small cross-section of councils across Scotland, including the City of Edinburgh Council, asking about their attitudes towards, and plans for, local museums in their areas.

The suggestion is to keep the petition open and to explore those issues. Is the committee comfortable with that recommendation?

Members indicated agreement.


School Bus Safety (PE1098 and PE1223)

The Convener:

PE1098 and PE1223 both relate to school bus safety. PE1098 is by Lynn Merrifield on behalf of Kingseat community council and calls on the Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to make provision for every school bus to be installed with three-point seat belts. PE1223 is by Ron Beaty and calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Government to take action, whether through amending guidance, contracts, agreements or legislation, to require local authorities to install proper safety signage and lights on school buses—to be used only when school children are on the bus or when necessary—and to make overtaking a stationary school bus a criminal offence.

One of the petitioners participated in the launch of the committee's report today, and I thank Lynn Merrifield for her contribution to the debate at lunch time, which took place with the media present.

We have had a chance to discuss these petitions in detail before, and I am looking for suggestions as to how to deal with them now.

Nanette Milne:

We should certainly keep them open. I notice that the road safety framework was announced yesterday, and a number of the measures within it are very encouraging for both the petitioners. I saw that Mr Beaty was quoted in the local press this morning, saying that he is particularly pleased about the new signage that is being proposed for school buses, which was a major concern of his. It would be premature to close the petitions.

I am worried about the discrepancy in road safety measures across the country. I suppose that I am fortunate, in that Aberdeenshire Council is taking new measures on board, having piloted SeeMe bus stops. I have not heard the outcome of that pilot, but I presume that it has done well, given that the minister is progressing it. Moray Council is doing extremely well, too.

I spoke to Lynn Merrifield at lunch time, and she is most concerned that provision in Fife is nowhere near the standard that applies further north. We should be asking the Government how the measures that it is proposing will be implemented evenly across local authorities. How will the Government support and encourage local authorities to carry out the required measures? Can local authorities be assessed against the proposed new measures, with action encouraged as soon as possible?

The suggestion is to keep the two petitions open and to explore the areas that Nanette Milne has identified. Are we happy to do that?

Members indicated agreement.


Stewart Committee Report (PE1106)

The Convener:

PE1106, by Jamie Webster, calls for the Scottish Parliament to urge the Government to review those aspects of the Stewart committee's report, "Keeping Offenders out of Court: Further Alternatives to Prosecution", that relate to the rights of victims of crime to obtain information on the handling of cases.

The petition has been in front of us before. As the clerks have indicated, the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service has confirmed that the review of the policy on the public disclosure of warnings is still on-going. The outcome of that review is expected to be available in September. I am not sure whether this is what Nigel Don would want to suggest, but the suggestion that is being made is essentially that we should suspend consideration of the petition until that on-going work has been undertaken.

Nigel Don:

I do not think that we have been left with any option. We know what the question is; we know that it is being worked on; and until we get the answer, we will simply have to wait. I am sure that the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service is not being dilatory for the sake of it.

Thank you very much.


Blood Donation (PE1135)

The Convener:

PE1135, from Rob McDowall, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Government to review existing guidelines and risk assessment procedures to allow healthy gay and bisexual men to donate blood. Do members have any suggestions about how we should deal with the petition?

Bill Butler:

I have been informed that the Health Protection Agency in England is carrying out work on the exclusion of donors because of high-risk behaviour. As a result, I suggest that we suspend consideration of the petition until that work is completed.

The Convener:

It might also be helpful to ask whether we are any further forward in examining good practice in and new medical evidence from France, Italy, Spain, Portugal and other European countries that have lifted these bans. We will suspend consideration of the petition as we await the outcome of the HPA's research and find out what is happening in Europe.


Fire Service Boards (PE1147)

The Convener:

PE1147, from Mrs Annmargaret Watson on behalf of the fire reforms action group, calls on the Parliament to urge the Government to review current legislation on local authority representation on fire service joint boards. We have discussed the petition in substantial detail; representations have been made to the Government; and the Minister for Community Safety has responded that the issues have been identified. I think that we have done as much as we possibly can and the minister's response makes quite clear his role in this matter and the role played, quite rightly, by local authorities with regard to joint boards. Although the petition's message is clear, I do not think that we can add anything more and, as a result, I recommend that we close the petition.

Indeed. I also point out that, in a letter that she has sent to the committee, the petitioner reluctantly agrees that there is really no other option.

So we will close our consideration of the petition.


Community Prisons (PE1150)

The Convener:

PE1150, from David Wemyss on behalf of Aberdeen prison visiting committee, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Government to consider whether large prisons remote from prisoners' families offer the best way of rehabilitating offenders or whether, as an alternative, localised community prisons should be supported much more strongly to maintain genuinely easy access to family links and other community virtues.

There has been a lot of discussion about this petition and individual MSPs have expressed an interest in the subject. Indeed, two members, Lewis Macdonald and Richard Baker, are present this afternoon to comment on the petition. Perhaps we should hear first from one of the constituency members for Aberdeen.

Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab):

I appreciate the opportunity to speak, convener. The committee's work on the petition has helped to flush out some of the issues, and I certainly think that an interesting analogy can be drawn with its work on the petition on the Aberdeen forensic science laboratory, which, partly as a result of the parliamentary scrutiny to which the proposal has been subjected—for which the committee should receive a lot of thanks—ministers have put off the decision to close.

Although the committee has also been helpful with regard to the proposal to close Aberdeen prison, ministers have not yet accepted the need to review that decision. I suggest that the case is similar to that of the forensic science laboratory. There seems to be a disjuncture between ministers' formal position, which, as has been made clear to the committee and set out in evidence, is support for the principle of community-facing prisons—something that I welcome—and the actual practice in Scotland's third city, where the proposal is to close a community-facing prison and replace it with a prison located at some distance from the city. I am very grateful to the committee for its inquiry into this matter, but I suggest that the petition remain open or that the committee take further action or give ministers' decisions a wider airing.

Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab):

I agree with Lewis Macdonald that the issues raised in the petition require further discussion. Indeed, given that Craiginches prison is still open, that the plans for HMP Grampian at Peterhead have not been progressed to any great extent, and that major questions remain about the detail of the proposal, I think that we have an important window of opportunity in which to discuss the matter. As ministers have been unable to answer the key question of how the proposal links into what is meant to be an overall strategy of community-facing prisons—a strategy that does not seem to have been followed in Aberdeen and the north east—I feel that there are very strong grounds for the committee to keep the petition open or to do whatever it decides to ensure that the issues remain under discussion.

Nanette Milne:

I agree that we should keep the petition open. I was very struck by the comment made last week by the outgoing chief inspector of prisons, Andrew McLellan, who was quoted in our local press as saying that

"family contact is essential to the rehabilitation process and that forcing visitors to embark on a 70-mile round trip to a new £140 million ‘superjail' planned for Peterhead after Craiginches Prison is closed would have a detrimental impact"

on the rehabilitation of prisoners. Given Dr McLellan's experience in prison services, we have to take such comments very seriously.

My instinct after speaking to a number of local people was that we should refer the petition to the Justice Committee, but I suspect that that committee has more work on its plate than it might be able to deal with.

I greet that suggestion with fear and alarm. I was 6ft 8in when we began this discussion; look at the size I am now.

Nanette Milne:

The other suggestion that was made locally was that, if we can secure time in the chamber, the committee should initiate a parliamentary debate on the petition to air all the issues—which is what, as Lewis Macdonald said, we did with the petition on the forensic science laboratory. I am interested in hearing what my fellow committee members think of that proposal.

Bill Butler:

As the deputy convener of the Justice Committee, I have to say that Nanette Milne is absolutely right in thinking that we are full up at the moment. Seriously, though, I do not know whether referring the petition to the Justice Committee would serve any purpose.

However, before I heard Nanette Milne's suggestion, I was going to say that we could take one last shy at the matter and write to the Scottish Government, asking whether the Rev Dr Andrew McLellan's comments about family contact and rehabilitation might change its mind on the matter. As Lewis Macdonald and Richard Baker have pointed out, there is a perceived disconnect between the principle enunciated by the Scottish Government and the practice that it is following. That is certainly a matter for debate.

As a result, I endorse Nanette Milne's suggestion that we initiate a full parliamentary debate on the petition to ensure that the different points of view are heard in plenary session, to give members more time to expand on their views and to give the ministerial team a chance to respond. That would not impinge on the Justice Committee's time and would be a way of progressing at least to the point at which the discussion can be had. I support Nanette Milne's suggestion.

I fully support that. Are we talking about a subject debate or a debate on a motion that is lodged on the committee's behalf?

The Convener:

I ask Fergus Cochrane to explain the situation. Any request for a debate, as has been suggested, would have to go to the Conveners Group, to which we have already suggested a debate. The question is how we manage the committee's intention practically.

Fergus Cochrane (Clerk):

An e-mail was sent in which bids were sought from committees for committee time in the chamber in September and at Christmas, so a bid has been made for a Public Petitions Committee debate on the committee's inquiry report. The Conveners Group and subsequently the Parliamentary Bureau have still to consider committees' bids. If the committee wants to bid for a debate on the petition, we will feed that in, too.

What is the terminology for such a debate?

Fergus Cochrane:

The debate could be on a motion, which I suspect would go along the lines of the petition. For a committee debate, the motion would be in the convener's name.

Does anyone who has not contributed want to comment?

Marlyn Glen:

I support Nanette Milne's suggestion, which is a good idea. It is important to try to have the debate early, so I suggest that we go for it in September rather than later.

We have not fully considered the issues. I would certainly like what is happening now to be sorted out, but I would also like more of a long-term vision for the future of Scottish prisons. Calling something community facing is not the same as having prisons in communities instead of large prisons to which people must travel. Many issues are involved. The Equal Opportunities Committee's inquiry this year has been about female offenders, which fits in well with the subject that the petition raises. I support holding a debate.

The Convener:

We have a key recommendation, which we will explore. We want to keep the petition open and to explore the practical option, which I ask the clerk to manage. The only caveat is about the role of the Conveners Group and appropriate timetabling. We can come back to the committee after the recess about the exact phrasing or terminology of a request. Is that okay?

Members indicated agreement.


Public and Voluntary Sector Services (Cuts) (PE1158)

The Convener:

PE1158 is by Kevin Hutchens, on behalf of Aberdeen Trades Union Council. The members who represent that region or Aberdeen city are free to stay for the discussion.

The petition calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Government to review the funding that is available to local authorities for the provision of public and voluntary sector services. We have had a chance to hear from the petitioners. The petition's core does not differ much from that of PE1231 from the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations and others, but PE1158 is more local to the situation that has faced Aberdeen in recent months. The best course of action might be to close the petition or to refer it to the committee that is undertaking a broader review of funding mechanisms.

With caution, I invite Richard Baker to speak. I wanted to set out the stall, but I am happy for you to contribute.

Richard Baker:

We always proceed with caution. Your suggestion of referring the petition to the relevant committee is sensible. Several issues are on-going in Aberdeen. The Accounts Commission has made its report, but the structural changes in Aberdeen City Council continue. Moreover, a number of inspectorate examinations of not only education but children's services are still being carried out. If the relevant committee—in this case, the Local Government and Communities Committee—can discuss those issues in that context, that, I hope, will satisfy the petitioners. It certainly makes sense to me.

When we refer it to the Local Government and Communities Committee, we can highlight the broad areas of discussion.

John Wilson:

Perhaps the clerks can clarify this for me, but what exactly are we referring to the Local Government and Communities Committee? As far as I understand it, we were asking that committee to look at the issue of remunerating staff who deliver services; however, this petition deals with the much wider issue of the funding available to voluntary organisations to deliver services. I think that we need to clarify which services we mean. After all, the Local Government and Communities Committee might think that it is carrying out some focused work on the earlier petition, which was about ensuring that people in the voluntary sector are paid the same as those in local government for delivering the same services; however, what I have heard suggests that the brief for the piece of work that we are asking that committee to take on could get wider and wider.

Nigel Don:

Following on from John Wilson's comments and having considered the terms of reference, I wonder whether the petition should be referred to the Finance Committee rather than the Local Government and Communities Committee. After all, it is not about procurement but about the funding that is available. It is a fair, but very different question and, as I say, it probably has more to do with the Finance Committee.

The Convener:

Fergus Cochrane thought that he had managed to pass on the petition, but he has been found out. I ask him to respond to John Wilson's question on what I think is an important nuance and Nigel Don's question whether the petition should be referred to the Finance Committee rather than the Local Government and Communities Committee. I point out, however, that we do not know whether the Finance Committee has any room to deal with the matter.

Fergus Cochrane:

The committee previously referred PE1231 to the Local Government and Communities Committee. At the time, there was a discussion of the wider issues raised in the petition but, as I said at the time, a petition can be referred to only one committee. When I referred the petition to the Local Government and Communities Committee, I flagged up its existence to the Finance Committee and the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee, but it is obviously up to the Local Government and Communities Committee to decide whether it wants to seek the views of the Finance Committee or indeed any other committee.

Many of the same points appear to apply to this discussion. Whatever the wider issues in the petition are, the fact is that the petition can either be referred to the Local Government and Communities Committee—or the Finance Committee—or be retained for consideration by this committee.

Bill Butler:

Although the petitions are not the same, there are enough similarities for us to refer this petition initially to the Local Government and Communities Committee. However, it would be up to that committee to say, for example, "Wait a minute—we'd like to hear from the Finance Committee and/or the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee about this." On that basis, I think that referring the petition to the Local Government and Communities Committee is still within the bounds of logic.

We need to find some way through this complex issue.

Dare I say that there is another alternative?

A third way, you might say.

Indeed. We could suspend consideration of the petition until the Local Government and Communities Committee reports its findings and we are able to determine whether its work covers what needs to be covered.

The Convener:

The key issue is that the strong view from everybody in the committee is that we should not close the petition, so let us agree to that and consider options. I invite other committee members to contribute and I invite Lewis Macdonald to speak if he has a helpful suggestion.

Lewis Macdonald:

I tend to the view that Bill Butler is right to say that the petition could usefully go to the Local Government and Communities Committee for consideration in the first instance. The petition is about not just central Government funding of local government, but the relationship between councils and the voluntary sector. The petition concerns a complex of relationships. I think that I am right in saying that such issues are arising in many places, so it is perhaps best that the petition is considered as part of a wider inquiry, if the Local Government and Communities Committee intends to do that for PE1231.

I hoped that that contribution would be really helpful.

I thought that it was really helpful that Lewis Macdonald agreed with me.

From where I am sitting, however, I have now heard three suggestions.

Let us try to get through this. Do you have an even more helpful suggestion, Nigel?

Nigel Don:

To achieve some harmony about Aberdeen, I am happy to go with Lewis Macdonald's suggestion. If members want to approach the issue from the local authority's point of view, that is fine. In that case, we should refer the petition to the Local Government and Communities Committee. Whether to examine the petition is up to that committee, but we can just say, "Here's another one that widens the boundaries slightly."

The Convener:

From looking at people's reactions in the room, I think that the petition will receive a robust examination at that committee.

We will take the recommended course of action and we will draw attention to the points on which the petition might be broader than PE1231. I am sure that the convener and members of the Local Government and Communities Committee will be quick to tell us whether the referral is appropriate or whether the petition should go to other committees. I will listen with interest to that debate when it pops up.

I thank the members who attended to discuss issues that affect their areas.


Befriending Services (PE1167)

The Convener:

PE1167, by Christine McNally on behalf of Clydesdale Befriending Group and other supporting organisations, relates to the impact of services for adults with learning disabilities on the "The same as you?" strategy and asks us to ensure that adequate funding is provided to support befriending opportunities and promote social inclusion.

Christine McNally and some individuals who were involved in her petition appear in the new petitions DVD that we have launched. I thank them for allowing us to include them when profiling the role that petitioners have played in the petitions process.

Having said that, I hope that we will be equally considerate about the petition by Christine McNally, on behalf of Clydesdale Befriending Group. We have discussed the petition before, but several of our questions have not been answered satisfactorily. I look for recommendations from committee members.

Robin Harper:

We should continue the petition and write to ask the Scottish Government the following questions. What is its timetable for its research project to evaluate how 10 years of "The same as you?" has improved the lives of those with a learning disability and their families? Will the Government consult the petitioner on that? Will that research consider the impact of befriending services on people with learning disabilities and whether the Scottish Government should support and fund those services? "The same as you?" recommended the use of befriending services, but such services have not been implemented. Why not, and when will they be implemented? Quite a lot of questions need serious answers.

Are we happy with those suggested questions?

Members indicated agreement.


Social Rented Housing (Standards) (PE1189)

The Convener:

PE1189 is by Anne Lear, on behalf of Govanhill Housing Association. I declare a potential interest as the constituency member for Govanhill. The petition calls on the Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to conduct an inquiry into the responsibilities of private landlords, the level of social housing that is below tolerable standard, the impact that slum living conditions have on the health and wellbeing of residents and the wider community, and whether such conditions should merit housing renewal area status and additional Scottish Government funding.

Do members have comments? Local residents and organisations made a strong presentation to us about the petition.

Anne McLaughlin:

I know that things have moved on a wee bit, because the Government has said that it will work with Govanhill Housing Association, and reviews are taking place.

We have received from the housing association the statement from Oxfam about Roma people not getting public recognition as a different ethnic group, among other things, but that goes away from the petition. I wonder whether there is scope for us to suggest that it might want to lodge another petition that focuses on that matter, because that is not what PE1189 is about. As the constituency MSP, you are more aware of the issue than most people are, convener. A number of people have come to me as a Glasgow list MSP to speak about the problems in Govanhill and the specific issues that people in the Roma community face. We could write to the housing association to say that it might want to lodge another petition that focuses on the specific issue that I mentioned.

Bill Butler:

There is a lot in what Anne McLaughlin says. The overall effectiveness of landlord registration will be reviewed in 2010, and the Scottish Government has said that it is willing to explore options with the petitioners and the local council on the extra support that it can provide. However, before we ask for another petition to be lodged, we should remember that a report that was commissioned by the housing association has still to find its way to the committee. Given that, and the fact that there are obviously complexities in and around the situation, to say the least—I think that 51 nationalities are involved in the area and the organisation—we should keep the petition open until we appraise that report. Once we have considered the report, we can return to Anne McLaughlin's suggestion. I would be loth to close the petition now, given that the committee has still to see that report.

The Convener:

Obviously, I have a particular interest in the petition. There are three fundamental issues. The petition is specifically about the role of landlords and the challenges that the community faces as a result of lots of movement and population shifts in it. There is a much better joined-up partnership at the local level than there was at this time last year—that is the result of the efforts of local organisations and the fact that the committee has had the petition in front of it—but there are still outstanding issues.

I have asked questions of Government ministers about what we in Scotland can do with other agencies in the United Kingdom to deal with issues relating to the impact on the community of its diversity. To be fair, we have received a good response from the Government in Scotland, which wants to open up dialogue.

I think that we should keep the petition open, await the report, and then see whether things are being pulled together. There was a good public meeting on the matter around a month ago. As ever, it was a stormy meeting, but it was still good, because people were feeling their way forward. The situation in the neighbourhood has been tough in the past couple of years, because of the big shifts that have occurred.

We could await the report and find out whether the local partnership group that has been established by the council and the Government makes any further recommendations. Are members happy to accept that recommendation? Shall we keep the petition open and follow things through?

Members indicated agreement.


A90/A937 (Safety Improvements) (PE1236)

The Convener:

PE1236, by Jill Campbell, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to improve safety measures on the A90 by constructing a grade-separated junction where the A937 crosses the A90 at Laurencekirk. Mike Rumbles, who is the constituency member, probably has his wee tent parked there to try to address the issue over the next period. I understand that he wants to speak to the petition.

Thank you very much indeed, convener. Jill Campbell is with us, as well.

I welcome Jill to the meeting. I am sure that Mike will raise the issues of concern.

Mike Rumbles:

The committee has received a letter from Transport Scotland. It is quite an astonishing letter—I have never seen one like it. There is absolutely no dispute about the statistics, which were obtained by Jill Campbell from Grampian Police through a freedom of information request; Transport Scotland included them in its letter.

The key to the issue is the map in the letter, on which you will see that there are three junctions to Laurencekirk: the southern junction, the central junction and the northern junction. I know that the committee has already considered the petition, but it is useful to remind people. The petition asks that a grade-separated junction be created at the southern junction. The idea is that the other two junctions should be closed.

You might find it astonishing that I say that there is absolutely no dispute about the figures. It is only the final paragraph of Transport Scotland's response that I find astonishing. There are several boxes on page 3 of the letter. The present safety measures were implemented in 2005. Let us compare the accident statistics for the three most recent years—2006, 2007 and 2008—with those for the three years before the safety measures were put in place. In the three years before 2005, there was one serious accident. In the three years after the safety measures were put in place, there were five serious accidents. In the three years before 2005, there were four slight accidents. In the three years after 2005, there were eight slight accidents.

Table 2 shows the recorded casualty numbers. In the three years before the safety measures were put in place, there were three serious casualties. In the three most recent years, the figure has increased to five. More important, the number of slight casualties has increased from seven to 15 over the same period. You might say, "Crikey! The evidence is self-evident." The petition is about the fact that after the safety measures were put in, there has been a doubling, if not a trebling, of the number of accidents, as recorded by Grampian Police and acknowledged by Transport Scotland and the Scottish Government.

What is the issue here? Table 4 gives the accident statistics for the specific junction where the safety measures were implemented. It is true that there has been a decrease in the number of accidents at that location, but as we have said all along—this is what the petition is all about—if there are safety measures at only one of the three entrances/exits to Laurencekirk, that will have a displacement effect at the other junctions, where the number of accidents has doubled, if not trebled.

Neither I, nor the petitioner, nor any of the local communities has any problem with Transport Scotland's letter until we get to the final paragraph, which says that the

"appraisal process gave specific consideration to the case for the grade separation of the Laurencekirk/Marykirk junction. Further to the road safety measures introduced in 2005 … which resulted in improved accident statistics at this location, it was not considered that grade separation was necessary".

My goodness; I think that it was Churchill who said that there are lies, damned lies and statistics. Transport Scotland is right. In the specific location where the safety measures were implemented, the statistics show that they have succeeded, but they have displaced accidents to the junctions that we want to close.

The purpose of the petition is to say, "Crikey! We have a real problem. If the Government doesn't take action, someone will die here." That is the real issue. I am not overdramatising the situation. People have died, before 2005. That is the only statistic that has not increased but, in my view, that is only by the grace of God.

We have a situation in which the information is correct and the statistics are not disputed. We had a meeting with the minister, but we could not exchange statistics because, at the time, we had not received Transport Scotland's letter. What is the issue? The issue is that, technically, the statistics have improved at the junction at which the safety measures were installed, but overall at Laurencekirk, they have dramatically worsened since 2005.

The petitioner and I would like Transport Scotland to answer the question that the petition raises, and not to answer a question that we did not raise. Nobody disputes Transport Scotland's statistics, and they are serious. However, Transport Scotland must consider all the statistics around Laurencekirk, and then tell us whether it thinks that a request for a grade-separated junction is reasonable. I ask Transport Scotland not to answer a question that we did not ask. I implore the committee to write to Transport Scotland to ask it to answer the question that we actually asked.

Another small point arises. An accident investigation and prevention study is going on at the moment; it is due to report at the end of June, so we have not yet received the statistics.

Bill Butler:

Mike Rumbles makes a number of telling points. We should write to Transport Scotland to ask whether the safety measures put in place since 2005 are suitable to cope with the steadily increasing volume of traffic at the junction.

Mr Rumbles mentioned the accident investigation and prevention study at Laurencekirk, and we should ask Transport Scotland when the results will be made public. We could also ask about the steps that will follow the completion of that study.

We should emphasise the point that Mr Rumbles made about the statistics being right but being misapplied, with the wrong conclusion therefore being drawn. A number of points are extant, and the committee should pursue them.

Nigel Don:

Like Mike Rumbles, I know this road reasonably well. On the map in Transport Scotland's letter, there are quite a few dots on a stretch of road, between the northern junction and the central junction, that ought not to represent a significant hazard. Can you enlighten us?

Mike Rumbles:

The 50mph zone is at the southern end and not the northern end. I would therefore guess that the problem is caused by traffic slowing down or not adjusting to the difference in the speed limit.

The petitioner has always asked for a grade-separated junction and for the closure of the other junctions around Laurencekirk. Problems have been caused by displacement.

Nigel Don:

I entirely understand that point, and I am right with you. I was just trying to work out why accidents were happening away from the junctions. However, if people are changing speed because of the 50mph sign—the consequence of a previous intervention—that sounds like a perfectly reasonable explanation for why there have been accidents.

That is what I assume has happened.

Nigel Don:

When we write to the Government for further information, could we ask about traffic flows on the road, for which I am sure there will be statistics? Laurencekirk has grown and is still growing, but I would have to defer to the local member on the areas east and west of Laurencekirk. They may have grown too, so the total volume of traffic in the area may have risen over the past few years. Growth has probably been significant, and I imagine that the projections are for further growth. We would have to ask the local councils to advise us on that.

There may be a degree of ambiguity about the present statistics—that may be a generous interpretation—and we should ask what account is being taken of the fact that traffic is likely to get busier.

Nanette Milne:

I agree with everything that Mike Rumbles has said about this junction. I crossed it fairly recently and I can see exactly what local people are talking about. I will ask Mike Rumbles a question, if I may, before making a suggestion. Do you think that it would make any difference if the length of the road that is subject to the 50mph speed limit were to be increased, to include all three junctions, at least as an interim measure?

Mike Rumbles:

I think that that would make a difference, as an interim measure. The reason why it is not being done is that Transport Scotland is reluctant to reduce the speed limit to 50mph over a very long stretch of a major trunk route. That is why it agreed to do so only around the one junction; it will not do it for the longer distance.

I still think that the suggestion might come from the committee—we could ask Transport Scotland if it will do it.

It would help.

It might focus Transport Scotland on the three junctions, instead of just the one.

There was a 50mph limit on the same road, down by Montrose. I might be going back a decade or more, but there was a 50mph limit for a significant period. I am sorry—it was around Forfar.

Transport Scotland's objection is that the A90 is the major dual carriageway—

Nigel Don:

Yes, but that was just further down the same road—further south, by Forfar, there used to be an extended stretch, passing through at least two junctions, where the speed limit was reduced to 50mph. Whether that worked or not is another matter, but that was done.

Robin Harper:

The case has been clearly made, and I think that the petition should be continued. There are a number of questions that we need to ask. I have travelled along that road many times. Having what is essentially a high-speed road with three junctions in relatively close proximity is a very poor idea. That is clear from the figures.

Members have made a series of suggestions. Does Mike Rumbles have any final comments?

Mike Rumbles:

Members might not be aware of this, but the Aberdeenshire local plan indicates that the area is a growth corridor. Lots of housing is about to be approved for Laurencekirk. Expansion has already taken place, and the railway station has just opened, which is great news. Laurencekirk is a vibrant, growing community, and there is therefore an awful lot more traffic.

The Convener:

Committee members have made a series of suggestions. We wish to pursue some, if not all, of the matters that you have raised, Mike; I hope that that will be of satisfaction not just to you, but to the petitioners. Members have also identified a couple of additional areas that we wish to explore. I hope that we can take some measures to get responses to those other questions. The petition will return to the committee in due course. Thank you for your time.


Middle East (PE1238)

The Convener:

PE1238, from Deryck Beaumont, on behalf of the Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign, calls on the Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to urge the UK Government to expel the Israeli ambassador from the UK until Israel shows that it is prepared to accept that it is not above international law. We have had communication back from the Scottish Government in relation to the petition, and I invite comments from members.

Bill Butler:

The Scottish Government is absolutely correct in its view that expelling the Israeli ambassador from the UK would not serve the prospects of a long-term peace in the Middle East. I want that to be stated on the record. The petition is mistaken. Like many members, I certainly support United Nations resolution 242 and the twin-state solution, but we should not, simply because of that, say that the petition has any merit in the short, medium or long term. I think that such an action would simply exacerbate the situation.

I do not want there to be any mistake or shilly-shallying: the Scottish Government is right and the petitioner is wrong, and I think that we should say so—and I have just said so. I think that we should close the petition.

I agree absolutely with everything that Bill Butler has said. I am a member of the cross-party group on Palestine, whose aims and objectives I support.

John Wilson:

I agree with Bill Butler and Robin Harper that we should close the petition, but not in the terms that have been expressed by Bill Butler. He might have a disagreement with the petitioner, but the right of the petitioner to submit the petition and have it dealt with is correct. The debate has been allowed to take place.

Announcements as recently as yesterday show that there is movement in Israel with regard to recognising the Palestinian state, which must be welcomed. We hope for more moves along those lines. The petitioner has brought a very important issue to our attention.

Anne McLaughlin:

I agree with John Wilson. The petitioner, the Scottish Government and—I think—the committee all want the same end; the issue is how to get there, and the Government does not believe that the measure that the petitioner proposes is the solution. I agree with that, and Bill Butler has said that he agrees with that. However, John Wilson is right that we should always encourage people to submit petitions, whether or not we agree with them.

Bill Butler:

Heaven forfend that I, as a member of the Public Petitions Committee, should discourage people from submitting petitions. I will make myself very clear. I think that the petitioner had every right to submit the petition. The long-term aim for a two-state solution is correct, but what the petitioner is proposing will not advance that one iota. It is as well to be frank and to say that, which is what I have done.

Okay, that is loud and clear. I recommend that we close the petition.

Members indicated agreement.


Same-sex Marriage (PE1239)

The Convener:

PE1239, from Nick Henderson, on behalf of the LGBT Network, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Government to amend the Marriage (Scotland) Act 1977 to allow two persons of the same sex to register a civil marriage and a religious marriage if the relevant religious body consents. Shirley-Anne Somerville is here to discuss the petition, which has been in front of the committee previously.

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Lothians) (SNP):

I draw the committee's attention to a sentence in Nick Henderson's most recent submission that sums the matter up. He says:

"something that is separate, no matter how much it mirrors or is similar to something else, is not equal."

That gets to the heart of the petition.

Two areas in the Scottish Government's response jump out. First, it says that "a significant legislative process" is required for the issue. The petitioner wonders whether that is the case. It would be useful if the committee sought more information on that, because I am not entirely convinced that it is that significant.

The other issue in the Government's response is that there may be some constitutional difficulties. Given that the equality agenda is shared by both the UK and Scottish Governments, I am not convinced that those difficulties are insurmountable and cannot be worked through in partnership.

The petitioner has submitted a proposal for the committee to consider. He favours the adoption of a rapporteur approach. I leave it entirely in the hands of the committee to decide what it thinks is the best way forward. However, I suggest that the submissions to date have provided sufficient grounds for further investigations, whether by this committee or another. The petition deserves to remain open.

Are there any comments or observations on the petition?

Bill Butler:

There are some difficulties with the petition. No one is saying that it will be easy, but perhaps some further investigation will prove fruitful. I do not think that this committee should take the petition forward. I suggest that we refer it to the Equal Opportunities Committee to explore the issues that still have to be explored.

Marlyn Glen:

As a member of the Equal Opportunities Committee, I will not comment on whether we give it the work.

I want to know what the timescale is for the test case that is pending in the European Court of Human Rights. That is important. I understand that it might be quite a lengthy process but, as I think I said previously, this is something that will eventually happen—it is just that we have to time it properly. I can understand why people want it done sooner rather than later.

Anne McLaughlin:

We should certainly keep the petition open, and I would prefer to keep it with the Public Petitions Committee. I would not object too strongly to our sending it to the Equal Opportunities Committee, but I think that we should move it forward a bit first. I have heard similar arguments about the civil partnership, but we need to remember that this issue is about people for whom a religious ceremony is extremely important, and to deny them the opportunity to have one is to deny them equality.

I know that the Government has said that the matter is not a priority for it, but the point of people sending petitions to the Public Petitions Committee is to try to change the priorities of the Government. The petitioners have put a lot of work into the petition.

I would be interested in finding out whether it is possible to appoint a rapporteur to steer the issue through and perhaps set up working groups, so that we are not simply sending letters and getting responses but ensuring that people sit down and discuss the matter in more detail. I do not know whether that has ever been done before.

Fergus Cochrane:

To my knowledge, it has not been done by this committee. However, I know that other committees have appointed rapporteurs.

A petition with almost the same wording is on the e-petitions website at the moment, and it will probably come before the committee in September. I could prepare a briefing note on the process of appointing a rapporteur, if that is an option that you wish to consider.

The Convener:

We could dovetail this petition with the new one. Obviously, because of the parliamentary timetable, that cannot be done before the summer recess. When we have both petitions before us, we can decide whether we want to consider using a rapporteur model or whether it might be more appropriate to pass the petitions to another committee.

We have received a number of responses from religious organisations. Did we write to the Church of Scotland or receive a response from it?

The Convener:

I think that we have written to it, but we have not had any formal response.

There have been a couple of suggestions about how we should handle the petition, but I think that we should keep it open until the clerk gets back to us with information about the rapporteur proposal.

Anne McLaughlin:

There appears to be a bit of disagreement between the Scottish Government and the Equality Network. The Scottish Government says that the process of changing the law would be too complex, but the Equality Network says that that is not the case. It would be interesting to get a bit more information from both sides of that argument.

We can pursue that in correspondence and see whether that information influences what we want to do with the petition.

Will we also follow up the European Court of Human Rights case?

Yes.


Siamese Fighting Fish (PE1240)

The Convener:

PE1240, from Chris Law, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to take measures to ban pet retailers from keeping Siamese fighting fish in small and restrictive tubs of water in their shops. We had an extensive discussion of the petition previously, which received interesting coverage.

We have received responses from the Ornamental Aquatic Trade Association and a number of local authorities. The responses indicate that pet shops that sell such animals adhere to the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006. Further, there is no evidence that the species in question does not receive adequate care from pet retailers.

On those grounds, I suggest that we close the petition.

Members indicated agreement.


G20 Summit (International Development) (PE1242)

The Convener:

PE1242, from Mark Buchan, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to lobby the Prime Minister, as leader of the G20 host nation, to take urgent action to address extreme poverty and deprivation in Africa and to reduce the debt of African countries.

We received this petition when we were in Fraserburgh, and I thank Mark Buchan and his colleague Jenna McDonald for talking about that event for the Public Petitions Committee's DVD.

Responses that have been received from the Scottish Government and the Department for International Development deal with approaches to tackling poverty and deprivation. The Scottish Government also says that it is committed to Scotland becoming a fair trade nation.

Mark Buchan has written to say that he feels that we have explored the issues in the petition as much as we can. He also says that his experience in appearing before the committee was very positive, and that he hopes that he has made a contribution to the issue.

Do we therefore agree to close the petition?

Members indicated agreement.

Anne McLaughlin:

In closing the petition, we should again congratulate Mark on the excellent contribution that he made—we all still talk about it. Ryan McLaughlin's contribution earlier today was also good, and I am sure that we will remember how good both of them were, as well as the contributions of the two girls who were with Mark.

We should also record our appreciation of his writing to us again with his views on the responses.

Absolutely.


NHS Services (Rural Areas) (PE1243)

The Convener:

Our final petition today, PE1243, is from Jenna McDonald and Fiona Henderson. It calls on the Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to consider how we can ensure that funding of local hospitals in rural areas is increased to ensure that they are properly equipped and staffed so that they can treat more local people, thereby better meeting the needs of the local population and ending the need for patients to undertake long journeys for treatment.

Again, we heard from these young petitioners when we visited Fraserburgh.

Do members have any views on how we should deal with the petition? The issue is complex, and we know that it is utterly dependent on national funding and local health board allocations.

Nigel Don:

I must confess that I am not entirely sure what we should do with the petition. However, I have a feeling that we have gone as far as we can. The issues have been well aired, and the Government understands the issues, which have been talked about elsewhere. Therefore, it might be best to close the petition.

The Public Audit Committee has done a lot of work on various aspects of the NHS. Would it be in order to ask that committee whether it is considering examining the issues that are dealt with in the petition?

The clerk is indicating that he does not think that the Public Audit Committee has anything like that in its work programme for the rest of the year. Anne, as you are a member of that committee, are you aware of what is coming up?

Anne McLaughlin:

I do not want this in the Official Report, but I get mixed up between the two committees. I cannot remember whether it was this committee or my other committee that was talking about the issue. However, I do not think that the Public Audit Committee is considering doing work on the issue that the petition deals with.

The Convener:

I do not think that the Public Audit Committee plans to consider the issue, Robin. Nigel Don has suggested that we reluctantly close the petition on the basis that we are dealing with the issues through broader debates around the health service and that health boards and the Government are addressing the issues.

Bill Butler:

I do not think that we should close the petition yet, as there are a few questions that we could usefully ask the Scottish Government. For example, how is the Government ensuring that appropriately skilled staff are available in rural hospitals to provide the range of treatment that is required? Also, what support is the Government providing to allow NHS boards to provide enhanced diagnostic and community care provision? I remember the two young women asking about access to e-health initiatives. We should write to the Government to ask what measures it intends to introduce to ensure that all rural hospitals have access to the latest e-health initiatives.

Given that the petitioners were very good when they appeared before us, we should ask those questions on their behalf, see what responses we get, and then consider whether we should close the petition.

We have two different recommendations.

Let us vote.

The Convener:

We have not yet had to divide.

I suggest that we continue the petition, explore the issues that Bill Butler has raised and come to a final view on what to do with the petition in September. Would Nigel Don care to courteously withdraw his suggestion?

My instinct is that we are asking the civil service to write one more letter that does not need to be written, but I will not force the point.

I understand, but it is a burden that the clerks are happy to take on.

I was thinking of the civil servants, not the clerks. Of course, I think of the clerks all the time.

Do we agree to write to the Government to ask the questions that Bill Butler has raised?

Members indicated agreement.

Our next meeting, which will be sooner than you anticipate, will be on 8 September. I am sure that a period of reflection during the recess will re-energise us for the future.

Meeting closed at 16:25.