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Chamber and committees

Equal Opportunities Committee

Meeting date: Thursday, December 13, 2012


Contents


Petition


Marriage (PE1413)

The Convener (Mary Fee)

Good morning and welcome to the Equal Opportunities Committee’s 25th meeting in 2012. I remind everyone to set their electronic devices to flight mode or switch them off.

Our first agenda item is consideration of petition PE1413 on preserving marriage. The petition is by Amy King and it calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to make no changes to the current definition of marriage as being a union between one man and one woman regardless of what happens at Westminster. Members have the papers in front of them and we have a couple of options to consider. We can either hold off on discussing the petition until the equal marriage bill is introduced and, as is more than likely, comes to the committee, or we can take any other course of action that we choose.

John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)

The petition is either very timely or untimely. In my view, it is untimely and unhelpful, and I find some of the content offensive. It contains a lot of nonsense and a large number of loaded comments. As the convener rightly says, it is likely that this committee will deal with the proposed legislation. With that in mind, I suggest that we disregard this matter and move on.

Does anyone else have a comment?

John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)

Are the dates in paragraph 2 of the clerk’s paper correct? It says:

“On 24 January 2012, the Public Petitions Committee agreed to write to the Scottish Government and on 27 November 2011, they agreed to refer the petition”.

Should that say 27 November 2012?

It should be 2012, yes.

John Mason

Okay.

I slightly disagree with what John Finnie says about some of the petition being offensive. I think it represents a strongly held view. We have already heard quite a lot of similar views and we will hear more. I agree with him that if we are going to be looking at the proposed bill, there is not much point in looking at the petition separately.

My view is that we should consider the petition when we are considering the bill. It is widely expected that the bill will come to this committee, so there is no point in doing anything with the petition just now.

Siobhan McMahon (Central Scotland) (Lab)

I agree. We do not know what the Government is proposing, so I do not think that the petition is relevant at this time.

I do, however, think that we need to be careful with our language and I disagree with John Finnie when he said that we should “disregard” the petition. It is someone’s opinion. I might or might not agree with it, but to say that we should disregard it at this stage is a bit strong. If the committee gets the bill, the petition will be relevant and, regardless of our own views, we should listen to both sides.

John Finnie

Siobhan McMahon is entirely correct, convener. It was inappropriate to say “disregard”. Clearly, I have had due regard to the petition. I have read it thoroughly and I found the content offensive. What I really mean is that, taking into account future events, we should take no action on the petition. Whatever the appropriate term is that we should use, I am suggesting that we should take no action on the petition. I am not suggesting that we should hold it over and consider it alongside the legislation. Every day our email in-boxes are filling up with information and suggestions from the public, and of course we will have regard to them. I accept that my use of that word was inappropriate. I am suggesting that we take no action, or whatever the appropriate committee term is.

Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)

I agree that the petition is essentially redundant in the true sense of the word. It does not serve a use because it was intended to raise an issue before the Parliament that has been raised and will be considered through the formal processes. Ultimately, and assuming that the proposed bill comes to the committee, we will come to a conclusion on its general principles, which will mean the Parliament going one way or the other on the issue that the petition raises.

I agree that the petition does not serve any useful purpose at this point. It might be worth having it as written evidence.

I am new to the Parliament, so I do not know exactly what the options or the procedures are, but I share some of John Finnie’s observations about the petition’s content. It is rather strongly worded in its language and tone and I would be quite content for it to receive a firm rebuff at this stage on the ground that it is redundant.

Dennis Robertson (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)

My view is that—regardless of how it is worded or its tone—we hold over the petition and consider it as part of our evidence gathering. I suspect that we will receive a number of submissions if the bill comes to the committee for consideration, which I am sure that it will. We must look at all the evidence that is put before us, give due regard to submissions from both sides of the argument and take a balanced view.

Siobhan McMahon

The petition should be held over; it should not be closed at this stage. Regardless of my opinions about, for example, the language, there are things about it that I would want to discuss. The petition is not redundant; we have just not reached the stage at which we are discussing the bill. However, given that the Government is drafting the bill—we are not involved in the drafting of legislation—I suggest that we make it aware of the petition. A significant number of people have signed the petition, so it would be right to pass the petition on to the Government at this stage to include in its consultation.

John Mason

The Government published the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill yesterday. What strikes me is that the petition has received 2,500 signatures. I do not know whether Amy King, the petitioner, represents an organisation or just herself, but that is quite an impressive number. In principle—leaving aside the subject—just to knock back a petition is not a particularly good thing. It looks better if we leave it open as has been suggested and consider it alongside the evidence received on the bill.

John Finnie

For the avoidance of doubt, the Justice Committee has received a number of petitions that we have taken no action on. That does not mean that every member did not read them, take on board what was said and have due regard to them in deliberations. That is where I was coming from.

The Convener

Thank you for that.

It has been suggested that we leave the petition open and consider it when we are scrutinising the legislation. There has been a proposal that we pass it on to the Government for its consideration. There has also been a proposal that we disregard it. What do you mean by disregarding the petition, Mr Finnie?

John Finnie

I am suggesting that we take no further action, in so far as we know that the bill was published yesterday and that, at some point, we will all have an opportunity to input on it, and I am sure that we will all have regard to all the submissions that have been made to us, including this one.

When you say disregard, what you mean is—

John Finnie

Having corrected myself for using that phrase—the phrase that you keep reusing, convener—what I am saying is that we take no action, or whatever the appropriate phrase is, on this petition, because we will be taking further action on the subject matter.

I favour action 1.

Which action is that?

It is to take the petition and regard it as evidence when the bill is submitted to us.

Option 1 is to leave the petition open and to consider it at a later point; option 2 is to pass it on to the Government. We could do both those things.

My preference is to raise the petition with the Government, which is a fair suggestion, and then take no further action, given that we will consider it implicitly during the bill scrutiny process, but at this stage we are splitting hairs.

I am happy to split hairs with Marco Biagi on that issue.

We need to make a decision on this.

By all means, give it to the Government if you like. I would support that.

I think that there is agreement on giving it the Government, at least. Is that fair to say?

Is there agreement on that?

Members indicated agreement.

We agree to pass the petition to the Government.

Do we agree to leave the petition open and consider it later, when we look at the legislation?

I formally propose that the committee take no further action on the petition.

We have a proposal. Do we have agreement on it?

No. I would like the petition to be left open so that we could at least write back to the person who submitted it.

Do we agree to that?

Marco Biagi

No. I am more with John Finnie on this. The purpose of a public petition is to raise an issue with the Parliament for its scrutiny. This issue is already before the Parliament for its scrutiny, therefore the petition serves no use on its own. The petitioner will have multiple opportunities to make those points again and no doubt will do that. The fact of the petition and the claims that have been made in it will be considered as part of the evidence.

In the interests of not having 1,413 petitions and minimising the number of petitions that are dangling in front of the Parliament, it would be wise to be realistic and perhaps decide, in those rather well-chosen words, to take “no further action”.

Dennis Robertson

We have a petition before us. In the interests of equity and fairness we are suggesting that it is given due consideration along with other evidence when we scrutinise the bill. I see that as a fair and equitable solution, because the petition has a significant number of signatures and it represents a point of view. I disregard my personal opinion on the matter. I believe that the petition should remain open, but be considered only as part of the evidence when we scrutinise the bill.

At the moment, we are suggesting that we take no action apart from giving the petition due consideration along with other evidence—which I am sure that we will get lots of—when we scrutinise the bill.

Clearly we are not going to reach agreement. We have two options: we leave the petition open or we close it.

I am willing to bow to the prevailing opinions, even though I do not necessarily agree with the interpretation.

Who is in favour of leaving it open?

John Finnie

It is important that we have consensus on this. If the prevailing view is that we leave it open, I am happy to go with that.

I do not want anyone to misunderstand and think that this committee does not give due regard to all the detailed evidence that we get. I sincerely hope that that does not mean that we appear to be soliciting further information, because I have had hundreds and hundreds of emails, as I am sure that other members have.

It is important to reassure the petitioners that their information has been read—I certainly assure them that I have read it.

Are we happy that we have decided to leave the petition open?

Members indicated agreement.

We are content.

We are content—thank you. The petition will remain open for further consideration.