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Feasgar math. Welcome to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee. Today, we are taking evidence in relation to our Gaelic broadcasting inquiry. I am delighted to welcome to the committee representatives from a wide range of organisations.
A neach-gairm agus a bhuill na Pàrlamaid Albannach, tha sinn anabarrach toilichte an cothrom seo fhaighinn coinneachadh ribh agus còmhradh ribh air an fheasgar a tha seo, gu sònraichte ann an dàimh ri nithean Gàidhlig. 'S mise Dòmhnall MacAoidh agus 's mi neach-cathrach comataidh Gàidhlig na comhairle. Tha mi air a bhith nam bhall den chomhairle seo bho chionn còrr is fichead bliadhna, agus tha mi air a bhith gabhail ùidh anns a' Ghàidhlig anns an ùine sin. Tha mi a' coimhead adhartas ann an saoghal na Gàidhlig ann an cuid de dh'àiteachan, agus tha mi a' coimhead gu bheil a' Ghàidhlig a' dol air ais ann an àiteachan eile.
Convener and members of the Scottish Parliament, we are pleased to have this opportunity to talk to you, particularly on matters to do with Gaelic. I am Donald Mackay, chairman of the Gaelic development sub-committee of Western Isles Council. I have been a member of the council and have taken an interest in Gaelic matters for more than 20 years. There has been progress in some areas of Gaelic, but there has been a decline in others.
I open up the session to members for questions.
Before I start, in accordance with the standing orders, I declare an interest: I have given the clerks a full declaration of the financial interest that I have had in Gaelic television for a number of years.
Is ann le seòladh bho Chomataidh Telebhisein Gàidhlig a chuir sinn an studio air Rathad Shìphoirt air chòis. Bha sinn a' faighinn seòladh agus fiosrachadh bhuapasan, agus bha sinn an crochadh gu mòr air an eòlas a bha aca—eòlas nach robh am broinn na comhairle seo. Mar a bhitheas cuimhne aig cuid agaibh—is dòcha—bha iad dèidheil air an franchise fhaighinn bliadhnaichean air ais agus gheall iad gun tigeadh iad a Steòrnabhagh agus gun cruthaicheadh iad oibrichean ann an Steòrnabhagh. Airson ceartas a dhèanamh dhaibh, rinn iad sin, thàinig iad a Steòrnabhagh, agus bha iad ann bliadhnaichean; ach, gu mì-fhortanach, nuair a theirig cuid den airgead a bha iad a' faighinn, dh'fhalbh iad. Ach, a-nise, is e sin cuid den cho-obrachadh a bha eadar sinne agus Comataidh Telebhisein Gàidhlig. Bha e fìor cuideachd an uair a chaidh an studio mhòr a chur air chois agus mu cheithir no chòig bliadhna air ais chaidh a thogail a-rithist—cuid le airgead Eòrpach. Bha iadsan a-rithist an sàs ann còmhla rinn fhèin agus bha sinn a' co-obrachadh gu sin a chur air chois. B' e a' chrìoch a bha againn anns an amharc, gum bitheadh goireasan ann an seo a bha freagarrach airson gum bitheadh prògraman air an dèanamh anns na h-eileanan againn fhèin.
We established the studio at Seaforth Road with information and guidance from the Gaelic Television Committee. We are largely dependent on its experience—experience that we did not really have within the council. Some members of the committee will remember that the Gaelic Television Committee was keen to get the franchise years ago. It promised that it would come to Stornoway and that it would create employment here. To be fair, it did come to Stornoway and was here for a few years, but when the money dried up it went away. Co-operation existed between the Gaelic Television Committee and us.
I understand that, but could you expand on community involvement? The work of the council is often an interface between the community and other bodies. What has been the council's track record over the past 10 years in community education activity, activity in schools or, on the economic side, support for small and medium-sized enterprises to be ancillary providers to broadcasting?
Feasgar math. Is mise Ruairidh Moireach, iar-cheann-suidhe na comhairle, agus is mi cuideachd cathraiche comataidh poileasaidh agus stòrais, a tha an urra ri poileasaidhean Gàidhlig na comhairle. Airson freagairt na ceiste aig Mgr Russell, rud mu dheireadh a rinn sinn, is e gun do chum sinn taca ri bhith a' cur a-mach phrògraman digiteach. Nise, tha sin fo smachd S4C anns a' Chuimrigh, ach thàinig sinn gu aonta riutha, agus thatas a' cur a-mach nam prògraman sin a-nise ann an Gàidhlig troimh Studio Alba ann an seo, ann an Steòrnabhagh, agus chuir a' chomhairle, cha b' e a-mhàin taic airgid, ach taca air dòighean eile ris an iomairt sin.
Good afternoon. I am Roddy Murray, vice-convener of the council. I was also the chairman of the policy and resources committee, which is in charge of Gaelic policies. To answer Mr Russell's question, the most recent thing that we have done is to support digital broadcasting, which is under the control of S4C in Wales. The programmes are being transmitted through Studio Alba in Stornoway. The council supported that enterprise not only financially but in other ways.
That is a good example, but I want to go a bit further. Are there initiatives in your schools and community education service that might demystify television, to bring young people into the culture of television and to try to help them to develop that culture within their own language and their own community from school onwards?
Uill, tha Colaisd a' Chaisteil ann an seo ann an Steòrnabhagh, tha iad sin air a bhith ri toirt misneachadh agus brosnachadh mòr do dh'òigridh. Bha cùrsaichean trèanaidh aca airson òigridh, airson a dhol a-steach do dh'obair ann an telebhisean. Ach, gu mì-fhortanach, is e an rud a tha duilich mu dheidhinn na cùise, nach robh na cothroman ann an seo dhaibh, agus glè thric gu feumadh iad falbh gu tìr-mòr airson oibrichean a lorg. Agus, cuideachd, gu mì-fhortanach, is ann nas miosa a tha a' chùis air a dhol, leis gu bheil Grampian an dèidh tarraing a-mach a-nise às an studio ann an seo, agus is e nas lugha de chothroman a th' ann do dh'òigridh an àite a' dol nas motha.
Lews Castle College in Stornoway has greatly encouraged young people and offers them training courses to allow them to become involved in television work. What is sad is that there are no employment opportunities when they finish; they often have to go to the mainland for employment. Unfortunately, matters have become worse than that, in that Grampian Television has now withdrawn and there are even fewer opportunities for young people.
And even fewer now, with further jobs being shed in the independent sector in the past few weeks. Presumably that must worry you. Do you want to react to what has happened?
Is e rud gu math duilich dhuinne a tha ann an sin dha-rìreabh, gu bheil sinn a' faicinn oibrichean aig cridhe na coimhearsnachd agus aig cridhe na Gàidhlig, gu bheil iad gan toirt air falbh às an seo, a' cur às dhaibh buileach glan, air no gan toirt air falbh do dh'àiteachan eile den rìoghachd. Tha na h-eileanan a tha an seo ri cur ionmhas mòr ann am foghlam troimh mheadhan na Gàidhlig don chloinn. Tha sia air fhichead anns a' cheud, no 600 duine cloinne anns na h-aonadan Gàidhlig am bliadhna, ach is e glè bheag den sin a gheibh cothrom obair fhaighinn anns na h-eileanan tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig. Is e sin aon rud a bhitheadh sinne a' sùileachadh a dh'atharrachadh anns na bliadhnaichean a tha romhainn, agus gum bitheadh an roghainn aca co dhiubh a bhith ag obair ann, an àite sinn a bhith air ar faicinn mar àite a tha biathadh òigridh le Gàidhlig gu àiteachan eile den rìoghachd.
It is sad to see jobs at the heart of the Gaelic community having to be done away with altogether or taken to other parts of the country. The islands put a great deal of money into Gaelic-medium education. There are about 600 children in Gaelic-medium education this year, but very few of them will get opportunities for work in the islands in Gaelic. That is something that we expect to change in the future; we would like people at least to have the choice of working here instead of having to leave and transferring their skills to the mainland.
As you know, I support that view and have done so for a long time. The point I was making is that the number of jobs in Gaelic broadcasting seems to have peaked some years ago. There now appears to be a decline in the number of such jobs and we have seen a further decline in the past couple of weeks. Can you think of a specific strategy that would reverse that trend? It seems to be a disappointment—as big a disappointment as the decline in the number of Gaelic speakers in the past 10 years—despite tremendous efforts, particularly by Comhairle nan Eilean Siar.
Is e ionmhas cridhe agus cnag na cùise agus, ma tha an t-ionmhas ri dol sìos, bithidh na dreuchdan agus na h-oibrichean ri dol sìos. Chan e seirbheis choimearsalta a tha ann an craobh-sgaoileadh Gàidhlig, agus tha mi a' smaoineachadh gum bi iomadach latha ann gus am faic sinn sin ri tachairt.
Finance is at the heart of the matter: when finance decreases, jobs decrease. The service is not commercial and it will be a long time before we have such a service.
Bu mhath leam, a neach-gairm, ma dh'fhaodas mi, is dòcha beagan a chur ris an sin. Tha trioblaid ann anns an ùine ghoirid agus tha trioblaid ann anns an ùine fhada, mar a chì sinne e. Tha sinn mothachail air gur e saoghal digiteach a tha air thoiseach oirnn, ann an dhà no trì bhliadhnaichean air adhart. Is e a tha gu bhith cudthromach dhuinne anns na h-eileanan a tha seo nuair a thèid a stèidheachadh gur ann anns na h-eileanan a tha seo a bhitheas e air a stèidheachadh. Ma bhitheas e air a stèidheachadh air tìr-mòr, tha e a' ciallachadh gum bi tuilleadh den òigridh againn air an tarraing air falbh bho na h-eileanan againn. Is e cothrom a tha sinne a' meas a tha ann sònraichte, gnìomhachas a shuidheachadh ann an seo anns na h-eileanan a bhitheas làidir agus a chruthaicheas oibrichean proifeasanta math do dhaoin' òga. Tha sinn a' meas nach eil e ceart gum bi iad sin air an tarraing air falbh bho na h-eileanan againn a dh'àiteachan eile. Tha e glè mhath a bhith ri faicinn nan nithean sin air an cruthachadh aig a' BhBC agus an Obar Dheathain agus an àiteachan eile, ach is e Gaidheil a tha air an oideachadh agus an togail anns na h-eileanan againn a bhitheas a' lìonadh a' chuid mhòr den sin. B' fheàrr leinn a bhith faicinn sin ri tachairt anns na h-eileanan againn fhèin.
There is a short-term problem and a long-term problem. We are aware that we have to face the digital world in the next few years. When digital broadcasting is established, it is important that it is established in the Western Isles. If it is established on the mainland, there will be a further drain of skilled young people away from the islands. We have an opportunity to establish an industry in the Western Isles that will be strong and which will add to the number of professional jobs that are available here. Otherwise, all the skills and all the young people will drain away. If broadcasting is run from the mainland, training and skills learned in the Western Isles will go to fill jobs at the BBC and elsewhere. We would prefer to see those jobs here in the Western Isles.
Your submission seems to lead to the conclusion that a Gaelic channel should be established, preferably in Stornoway—a surprising submission from the Western Isles Council. Given that there are probably more Gaelic speakers in central Scotland, particularly in the city of Glasgow—which has well-developed educational opportunities and full-scale schooling for those seeking Gaelic education as part of mainstream education, too—would not it be better to identify developments there or elsewhere in Scotland to spread out the use and effectiveness of the language, rather than locating a channel in the Western Isles?
Tha caochladh fhreagairtean ann dhan cheist a tha sin. Tha mi a' gabhail ris gu bheil argamaid ann airson cuid de na h-oibrichean sin a chruthachadh. Tha mi fiosrach gu bheil mòran Ghaidheal gu sònraichte timcheall Ghlaschu, agus shìos mu mheadhan na rìoghachd, ach tha goireasan agus companaidhean mòra ann an sin cheana. Tha sinne a' coimhead ris gum bi rudeigin stèidhichte anns na h-eileanan againn fhèin. Ma thèid, aig an ìre sin, seanail digiteach a-steach agus gur ann aig deas a bhitheas e, is ann a-rithist a' tarraing air falbh bho na h-eileanan againn. Tha sibh mothachail air mar a tha sluagh anns na h-eileanan ri dol sìos, agus tha sinn a' cur feum air oibrichean, a chumas an sluagh ann an seo. Is dòcha leis a h-uile cheartas, shìos mu mheadhan na rìoghachd gum bi cothroman obrach eile ann nach eil anns na h-eileanan againn. Mar sin, tha sinn a' coimhead gur e cothrom air leth a tha ann agus cothrom cudthromach a bhitheas na chall dhuinn ma chailleas sinn e.
There are a variety of answers to that question. I accept that there is an argument that some of the jobs should be based in the central belt, particularly in Glasgow, where a lot of Gaels are based, but there are already facilities and big companies there. We would like to have something based in the Western Isles. If a digital channel were to be established in the central belt, it would drain skills away from the Western Isles. We are aware that the number of people here is declining and that there are employment opportunities in the central belt that do not exist in the Western Isles. Digital broadcasting offers a singular opportunity. If we lose that opportunity, we could be in quite a bad way.
I understand that and I am not unsympathetic to what you say.
Chan e seo an aon mheur a tha ann idir. Tha meuran eile ann a tha a cheart cho fìor ri telebhisean, ach tha sinn a' coimhead telebhisean cudthromach. Tha mòran chothroman ann. Chan eil fhios agam an do leugh sibh an aithisg a sgrìobh am Professor Sproull, bho chionn bhliadhnaichean air ais, a thaobh eaconomaidh na Gàidhlig, agus na cothroman a tha ann a thaobh eaconomaidh na Gàidhlig. Chan eil an seo ach aon de na cothroman a tha ann agus tha mi a' gabhail ris an argamaid a tha sibh a' cur rium. Tha sinne a' faicinn gu bheil seo cudthromach a thaobh a bhith a' cruthachadh an seòrsa oibrichean a tha iad a' cruthachadh, gur e oibrichean anns a bheil ùidh aig na daoin' òga, agus mura faigh iad e, an uair a ghluaiseas iad air falbh airson trèanadh, tha e buailteach nach till iad air ais gu na h-eileanan againn tuilleadh.
Television is not the only strand—there are others—but we see it as very important. There are many opportunities. I do not know whether members of the committee have read Professor Sproull's report on the Gaelic economy and the opportunities that exist within it. Digital television is just one of the opportunities. I accept the argument that Frank McAveety presents, but we see digital television as especially important, owing to the type of employment that it creates. It will attract young people; if we do not get it, they will move away for training and it is highly unlikely that they will come back to the Western Isles.
I should declare an interest: I am not a Gael and I have moved recently to these islands.
Much of the discussion so far has been about employment, encouraging new and innovative business opportunities and about spreading the benefits that may accrue from this investment and initiative. How many Gaelic independent production companies have you encouraged and funded outwith Stornoway?
Chan urrainn mise, le ceartas, a' cheist agaibh a fhreagairt, ach tha fios agam gu bheil dà chompanaidh neo-eisimeileach—aon aca ann an Steòrnabhagh an seo air meudachadh thairis air na bliadhnaichean, Eòlas; is e an companaidh eile Media nan Eilean—a tha le chèile air mòran adhartais a dhèanamh. A bharrachd air an sin, tha daoine ann a tha ag obair air an ceann fhèin. Tha mise a' smaoineachadh gu bheil mi ceart ann a bhith ag ràdh gu bheil suas ri 50 duine a tha ag obair, eadar daoine le camarathan, is daoine den t-seòrsa sin, a tha ag obair air an ceann fhèin, aig a bheil an comataidh ri toirt beòshlaint. Tha barrachd ag obair, tha iad mar mheadhan air a bhith ri toirt obair do bharrachd air na tha sinne a' gabhail a-steach, chan e a-mhàin na tha anns na companaidhean neo-eisimealach, agus na tha anns an companaidhean mòra, ach a' chuibhreann sin de dhaoine a tha ag obair air an ceann fhèin aig a bheil Comataidh Craolaidh Gàidhlig ri toirt cuideachadh.
With all due respect, I cannot really answer that question. I know that there are two independent companies. One of them, Eólas, is in Stornoway and the other is Media nan Eilean. They have made a lot of progress. About 50 freelance people with cameras and so on work independently. The Gaelic Broadcasting Committee helps them. That is a way of giving jobs to more people than we realise. There are many freelance people whom we do not know about.
You will know better than I do that the Western Isles is a big area. In capitalising on those prospects, there is more than Lewis at stake. I would have expected to find independent producers from Barra or Uist. Is it not the case that both the companies that you mentioned have recently shed jobs and that jobs in such companies are fewer in number than they were?
An companaidh a chaill an luchd-obrach, is ann stèidhichte anns na h-eileanan a deas a tha e, agus tha mi a' tuigsinn gur ann a-mhàin ann an Steòrnabhagh a chaill luchd-obrach an cosnadh. Mar sin dheth, tha companaidh a deas agus companaidh a tuath ann. Chan eil sinn a' caill sealladh air nach ann an Steòrnabhagh a-mhàin a tha sinne ag iarraidh gum bitheadh buaidh aig na nithean a tha seo ach air feadh nan eilean againn. Tha mi a' gabhail ris gu bheil, mar eisimpleir, Barraigh a cheart cho airidh air cuideachadh is a tha Steòrnabhagh. Ach feumaidh na goireasan a bhith ann an àite sònraichte air choreigin agus tha na goireasan cheana ann an Steòrnabhagh, ach chan eil sin a' cantainn nach eil e math na goireasan sin a ruighinn air feadh nan eilean againn.
The company that lost staff was based in the southern isles, but I understand that it was only in Stornoway that staff were lost. However, we do not expect the effects to be felt only in Stornoway; Barra is just as worthy of help as Stornoway. However, the facilities have to be situated somewhere. Facilities already exist in Stornoway, although that does not mean that their benefits would not be felt throughout the islands.
In your opening remarks, you spoke highly of the CCG, although you admitted that some of its initiatives had not been 100 per cent successful. How do you measure success? As it appears that the Gaelic-speaking population is still declining, surely any moves to establish a channel or to make improvements would partly be in the service of trying to reverse such a trend and expand the Gaelic language-speaking base. Is there any evidence that pouring more money in would reverse that trend, or would it be a King Canute operation?
Is e ceist fharsaing a tha sibh ri cur rium a thaobh àireamhan. Tha sinn mothachail air gu bheil àireamhan luchd-bruidhinn a' chànain againn ri dol sìos, ach mar a thuirt Mgr Ruairidh Moireach, tha àiteachan ann anns a bheil meudachadh, gu sònraichte anns na sgoiltean. An urrainn dhomh eisimpleir a thoirt dhuibh, a-rithist air mo thuras dhan Chuimrigh, agus an rud a bha a' tachairt ann an sin? Bha iad mothachail air gu robh ginealach aca air a chall nach robh a' bruidhinn a' chànain, ach bha iad a' foghlaim gu robh na daoine òga a bha a' tighinn as an dèidh nach d'fhuair an cànan, bha iad ag ràdh nach tug am pàrantan acasan an cànan dhaibh, agus bha iadsan a-nis ag iarraidh gum bitheadh a' chlann acasan air an oideachadh troimh mheadhan a' Chuimris.
Bha sinne a' coimhead mar gum bitheadh sin ri tachairt againn fhèin ann an seo: daoine òga, gu sònraichte pàrantan òga, a tha a' cur meas air gu bheil dà-chànanachas luachmhor. Ach os cionn nan uile nithean, tha iad a' coimhead gu bheil dà-chànanachas toirt dhan chloinn aca mòran chothroman nas fheàrr airson a bhith air an oideachadh.
Fhad 's a tha mi a' bruidhinn, dh'fhaodainn seo a ràdh gu pearsanta: tha mi toilichte gu bheil an Riaghaltas a' cur cudthrom air na thatar a' dèanamh ann am foghlam. Tha sinne a' coimhead foghlam cudthromach dhan ghinealach a tha a' tighinn. Tha sinn a' gabhail ris gu bheil cuid de na ginealaich a dh'fhalbh—gu sònraichte seann daoine—nach eil sinn a' dol gan cosnadh; cha robh iad a' coimhead luach anns a' chànan. Tha mi a' smaoineachadh gu bheil na daoine òga eadar-dhealaichte. Tha iad a' coimhead an cànan is an dòigh beatha againn luachmhor.
Following is the simultaneous interpretation: That is a fairly broad question as far as figures are concerned. We are aware of statistics that suggest that the number of people who speak the language is declining but, as my friend Roddy Murray said a few minutes ago, there have been increases, particularly in schools. I will provide another example from my visit to Wales. A generation lost out on speaking the Welsh language. The young people of that generation blamed their parents for not giving them the language and wanted their own children—the third generation—to have it. The same thing has happened here. Young parents now value bilingualism as a means of providing their children with more opportunities; indeed, they see it as something that gives their children two windows on the world, if I can put it like that.
I am happy to pay tribute to the extension of Gaelic-medium education. Friends have convinced me of its value and I offer encouragement to that movement. The Milne report referred to the possibility of investing £44 million a year in a dedicated Gaelic television channel. I wonder whether directors of education might consider that it would be better to invest £44 million in more Gaelic-medium teachers and schools. Would you like to comment on that proposal?
Ian Jenkins should remember that people other than directors of education would have views on such a proposal.
Indeed.
I want to take the discussion in a slightly different direction. There has been much talk about Wales and we all recognise the importance of S4C. We talk about mistakes, but we must recognise that the S4C strategy of spinning off a huge number of diverse independent companies as a counterbalance to broadcasting companies was influential. Mention was made in Donald Mackay's submission to the difficulty when SMG anchored the news in an unsuitable broadcasting slot.
Ged nach e ach seachd bliadhna bhon a chaidh an studio sin a chur air chois, tha an saoghal air atharrachadh gu mòr bhon latha sin. Is iad eaconamaidh agus ionmhas cnag na cùise. Tha feum air airgead mòr—£44 millean anns a' bhliadhna a tha air dhol a-steach—ma tha sinn a' dol a chur air dòigh seirbheis digiteach. Tha sinn a' dèanamh na h-iomairt airson math na Gàidhlig agus airson math nan eilean againn fhìn agus 's ann an seo a bu chòir a bhith a' cosg earrann mhòr dhen airgead sin.
The studio was established only seven years ago, but the broadcasting world has changed a great deal since then. Economics and financial affairs are at the centre of matters. If we are to have a digital service, much money will be needed and we should at least be spending part of that money here in the Western Isles.
There must be a transmission mechanism, but several can be constructed for digital television. For example, the job of broadcasting could be contracted to an existing broadcasting company, such as the BBC, and excellence could be developed in a range of production specialities in Stornoway. We all agree that a channel is necessary to achieve that end, but it does not have to be run by a new organisation. The Pròiseact nan Ealan submission referred to an organisation that was independent of all other broadcasters. That is leaning in the opposite direction to broadcasting, but has the council considered the range of transmission and production options that might become available with a different set of production strategies, some in small units? Ideally, such structures could be spread throughout the Western Isles and would be of much benefit to the population.
Feumaidh mi a ràdh nach do ghabh a' chomhairle beachd air a leithid sin de structair a chur air chois, ach tha sinn a' coimhead gu mionaideach ris, agus bidh sinn a' tighinn an àird chun na comhairle airson gun gabh iad beachd air dìreach dè seòrsa structair a bu chòir a bhith ann anns na làithean a tha romhainn.
The council has not considered establishing that kind of structure, but we will certainly look into it. The council will have to consider precisely what structure it wants to have in future.
One of the useful things that the committee can do in its report, after taking evidence, is feed back ideas into the council's deliberations. I hope that the council will be willing to consider such ideas.
Thank you for giving evidence to the committee this afternoon. If you would like to give us any further information, we would be more than happy to receive it.
Meeting adjourned.
On resuming—
I welcome members of the Comataidh Craolaidh Gàidhlig, who will give evidence to the committee. I ask Rosemary Ward to introduce the colleagues who are with us this afternoon.
A neach-gairm, agus a bhuill, feasgar math agus fàilte dhuibh uile gu Steòrnabhagh. An toiseach, bu mhath leam leisgeulan ar cathraiche, Mata MacIomhair, a thoirt seachad. Cha b' urrainn do Mhata a bhith an seo an-diugh, air sgàth agus gu bheil buidheann-obrach Jack McConaill a' coinneachadh ann an Dùn Èideann madainn an-diugh, agus tha Mata na bhall air a' chomataidh sin. Tha mi duilich nach eil esan ann a sheo. 'S e sin is coireach gu bheil mise, Rosemary Ward, mar iar-chathraiche na comataidh, a' gabhail àite Mhata.
Good afternoon and welcome to Stornoway. I begin by conveying the apologies of our chairman, Matthew MacIver, who is not able to be here today because Jack McConnell's task force, of which he is a member, was meeting in Edinburgh this morning. My name is Rosemary Ward and I am the deputy chairperson of Comataidh Craolaidh Gàidhlig. I am taking Matthew's place today.
Tapadh leibh. Tha e math a bhith còmhla ribh an seo an-diugh. Bu mhiann leamsa dìreach dhà no trì rudan a ràdh a tha is dòcha a' togail air a' chòmhradh a bh' agaibh le Comhairle nan Eilean Siar.
It is good to be here today. I would like to say a few things following on from the committee's discussion with the witnesses from Western Isles Council.
One of the committee's questions may be: why Stornoway and the Western Isles, rather than the mainland? I will answer that question from a personal point of view. I was involved in setting up Gaelic-medium education in Glasgow. As director of Comunn na Gàidhlig, from 1985 onwards I tried to develop Gaelic education, arts and broadcasting. Our problem is that young people leave the islands and go to live in Glasgow to get jobs in Gaelic television, and none of them comes back. The questions for the coming days are whether there is to be a new digital service and, if so, whether we will use that new opportunity to create new jobs in the islands. That does not necessarily mean that people working in Glasgow now should not be there—they must be there—but if the committee does not support television as a medium for Gaelic in the islands and the Highlands, everyone will be based in Glasgow.
I thank the witnesses for their statements. I ask members to indicate whether they have questions.
You have expressed a statement of success. It might surprise you to hear me say this, but one of the successes has been that the existence of the committee in Stornoway has not caused work to become centralised. Indeed, the work that you have been funding has been somewhat distant from you, whether it be in Aberdeen, Glasgow or elsewhere.
Tha mi toilichte gu bheil Mìcheal a' togail seo oir tha e toirt dhuinn cothrom mìneachadh dè fèir an ro-innleachd a th' againn. Na h-obraichean a tha sinn ag ainmeachadh, anns an t-sanas-naidheachd a tha sin, tha sin dìreach a' cur air na h-obraichean a chaidh a chall bho chionn dhà no trì mhìosan. Cha bhi an àireamh dhaoine a bhios ag obair anns an studio sin mòran nas motha na bha e o chionn dà bhliadhna, nuair a bha Grampian telebhisean ga ruith, ach 's e tha sinn a' feuchainn ri dhèanamh le faighinn an àite sin, a dh'fhosgladh cothroman a-mach tro phrògram a bhith dèanta anns an studio sin de sheòrsa nach robh againn riamh ron seo.
I am glad that you have raised that point, as it allows me to explain our plans. The press release concerned the replacement of jobs that were lost a few months ago. The number of people working in the studio will not be much higher than it was two years ago when Grampian Television was there. We are trying to open out opportunities by making in that studio programmes of a kind that we have not made before. Small independent companies and other people who may be working for themselves can make parts of programmes—perhaps five minutes here and there—that will be included in the programme. That facility will help Gaelic broadcasting to develop in places other than Stornoway.
Having an area in which small bits of programmes that are produced elsewhere are put together is not the same as having a diverse production service. Most people's vision of a developed digital service would be a service that takes high-quality programming—I accept the need for having high-quality material—from a large variety of sources and feeds it through a distribution network. You seem to be placing in the middle of that an additional element of sewing things together. It appears that you want to act almost like a commissioner, which you are not allowed to do under the Broadcasting Act 1990. I think that the act is weak on that—it allows you to be a funder, but gives you no commissioning powers, which, as you and your colleagues say, is a great problem. I do not understand the need for an additional barrier—an additional middleman.
Tha dà phuing agaibh an sin a-measg a' chèile. A' cheud tè, 's e feumaidh sinn cuimhneachadh gu bheil sinne fhathast a' maoineachadh airson analogue; tha seirbheis digital a' dol a thighinn, tha sinn an dòchas, ach 's ann airson na seirbheis analogue a tha sinn a' maoineachadh a' phrògraim seo, a tha a' tachairt anns an studio. Ach tha sinn an dòchas tro bhith a' dèanamh sin, gun cruthaich sin cothroman trèanaidh, a bheir dha barrachd dhaoine cothrom tighinn a-steach a dh'ionnsachadh ciamar a tha thu a' cleachdadh uidheaman digiteach agus ullachadh a dhèanamh airson sianal digiteach a bhith ann.
Two points have been mixed together. We must remember that we are still funding analogue. We hope that a digital service will come, but we are funding an analogue service for the programmes that are being made in this studio. By doing that, we hope that we will create training opportunities that will give more people the chance to learn how to use digital equipment and to get ready for our digital channel. The islands and the mainland are together as part of the University of the Highlands and Islands structure. Cable goes through the studio. That means that a studio in Skye and little studios all over the place could be tied together through the UHI network. Something would be going on not just in Stornoway, but throughout the country.
Exactly so. I understand and support the economic arguments for the growth of jobs in Stornoway, just as I support the growth of jobs in Barra, Skye and all over. The original intention of Comataidh Craolaidh Gàidhlig was to realise that diversity, but there was another intention—to ensure that Gaelic was not left behind and forgotten, but that it re-entered the mainstream of Scottish television, life and discourse. The more there is a concept of a new middleman broadcasting an exclusive channel from Stornoway—that is how the matter sometimes appears, although I know that you would not agree with those terms—the less Gaelic enters into the wider discourse. We could argue about that all day.
Tha mi a' smaoineachadh gu robh an rud a chaidh a chur dhan achd ann an 1990 gu robh sin lag, agus ged a chaidh an rud a cheangal ri ITV, agus ged a chaidh a ràdh gu feumadh suas ri 200 uair a thìde a bhith air am maoineachadh agus gum feumadh ITV a bith gan sealltainn. Tha dà rud air tachairt, seach gun deach a' mhaoin sìos chan eil uidhir de phrògraman ann agus chan eil uidhir de dh'uairean a thìde ann, ach cuideachd tha ITV fhèin air atharrachadh gu mòr ann an deich bliadhna. Tha fad a bharrachd co-fharpais aca bho stèiseanan satellite agus, mar a tha fhios agaibh, dh'atharraich a' chùis le Grampian agus Scottish Television agus ghabh SMG thairis iad.
The Broadcasting Act 1990 was weak. Although the act was tied to ITV, and although it was said that up to 200 hours would have to be funded, two things have happened. The amount of money decreased and there are not as many programmes or hours. Additionally, ITV has changed enormously in 10 years. There is far more competition from satellite stations and things have changed between Grampian and Scottish Television with the SMG takeover. In the first year after that takeover, there were two half hours—on a Tuesday and a Thursday evening at prime time—on ITV for a few months, but that was cut down to one half hour.
The commitment from SMG is pathetic. Half an hour on a Sunday is a token commitment. I see that you are nodding; I wish that you would say yes so that we would get it on the record. Clearly, many people would agree that the commitment is token.
I would like some specific information on jobs and training. Can you tell us how many of those who were trained at Sabhal Mòr Ostaig and Lews Castle College have found jobs in radio and television? How many are still employed in radio and television? Have you been able to work out, from your investment in that training and the number of those jobs, what the average cost of each post is?
Tha e air soirbheachadh glè mhath leis na daoine a chaidh tron chùrsa aig Sabhal Mòr Ostaig. Tha mu thrì chairteal dhiubh ag obair anns a' ghnìomhachas agus tha cuid eile den fheadhainn nach eil, ann an Gàidhlig ann an seagh air choreigin—mar luchd-teagaisg, mar eisimpleir. Den trì chairteal sin, tha còrr agus an dara leth ag obair aig a' BhBC, agus tha an còrr dhiubh ag obair aig SMG no aig companaidhean neo-eisimeileach. A thaobh a' chosgais, tha an cosgais àrd, chan eil teagamh sam bith mu dheidhinn sin. Tha e a' cosg mu thrì cheud mìle not anns a' bhliadhna a bhith a' ruith na cùrsa sin airson deichnear. Dh'fhaodadh tu a ràdh a-rèist gu bheil e a' cosg deich air fhichead—no trichead, mar a chanas sinn anns a' Ghàidhlig ùr—mìle not airson gach neach a tha a' dol tron sin. Tha e cosgail daoine a thrèanadh airson telebhisein co-dhiù—bitheadh sin ann an Gàidhlig no bitheadh e ann am Beurla—agus tha na daoine sin air feum mhòr a dhèanamh agus air obair mhòr a dhèanamh. Ach, a-rithist tha mi a' creidsinn gun canadh an fheadhainn a bha ann an seo roimhe, gu mì-fhortanach, gu bheil cus dhiubh ag obair ann an Glaschu seach air a' Ghaidhealtachd bhon tàinig iad, a chionn 's gur ann an sin a tha a' mhòr-chuid de dh'obair ann an telebhisean Gàidhlig. Agus a-rithist ged a tha buannachd a' tighinn a-mach às, ann an cuid de dhòighean, tha ceist ann an ann dìreach airson sin a thòisich sinn ri toirt Gaidheil a-steach air cùrsa den t-seòrsa sin, airson obraichean a thoirt dhaibh taobh a-muigh na Gaidhealtachd.
The people who worked through the courses at Sabhal Mòr Ostaig have had considerable success. About three quarters of them work in the Gaelic broadcasting industry. Some of those who do not work in the industry work in Gaelic in some way, perhaps as teachers. Of the three quarters who work in Gaelic broadcasting, more than half work for the BBC. The others work for SMG or the independent companies.
We all applaud the fact that you have trained people and got them jobs. Have you conducted any kind of audit that enables you to tell us exactly what writing skills, production skills, technical skills and craft skills have been developed and built up in Gaelic television during the past 10 years? Do you have such an audit of skills?
Tha dùn stuth dhen t-seòrsa sin againn ann a sheo gu sònraichte ma tha sibh ag iarraidh na h-àireamhan fèir glan, nì sinn sin a chur thugaibh as dèidh làimh, oir dh'fheumadh sinn tòiseachadh a dhol tron a h-uile càil tha sin dìreach a h-uile càil a chur gu mionaideach sìos air pàipeir dhuibh. Bheireadh e barrachd ùine na th' agamsa an-dràsta son tòiseachdainn air coimhead tron a sin.
I have a heap of such information with me, but if you want numbers, I would have to send you them later. It would take more time than we have just now to go through all the papers and write everything down for you.
That would be helpful.
How do you account for the drop in audience figures for Gaelic programmes over the years?
Nuair tha thu a' coimhead ri telebhisean, aig amannan dhen là, tha tòrr dhaoine a' coimhead telebhisein agus 's e an àm as motha a tha iad a' coimhead 's ann as dèidh sia uairean a dh'oidhche—eadar sia uairean a dh'oidhche agus mu aon uair deug a dh'oidhche. Ma tha na prògraman againne a-rèist a' dol a-mach air ITV aig àm far a bheil tòrr dhaoine a' coimhead telebhisein, tha tòrr dhaoine gu bhith gan coimhead.
At certain times of the day, many people watch television. Most people watch television between 6 pm and about 11 pm. If programmes are broadcast on ITV when many people are watching television, many people will watch those programmes. When SMG started taking programmes away from those prime times—say on Tuesday and Thursday evenings—and scheduling them on Sunday evenings, not as many people watched them, because not as many people watch television at 6 pm on a Sunday evening as do at 7.30 pm on a Tuesday.
If I had the choice between watching "EastEnders" or an SNP political broadcast, I would watch the SNP's broadcast—particularly if it were the good kilted version that Mike Russell and I discussed earlier.
Tha mise a' smaoineachadh gur e co-obrachadh eadar na companaidhean craobh-sgaoilidh agus CCG airson cruthachadh seirbhis de sheòrsa ùr, an rud a b' fheàrr a dhèanadh na craoladairean. Chan eil sinn ag ràdh idir nach bu chòir do chraoladairean a bhith an sàs ann an seirbheis telebhisean Gàidhlig. Tha mi smaoineachadh gum b' urrainn dhuinn obrachadh còmhla airson seirbheis telebhisean Gàidhlig a thoirt gu buil; oir tha feum air tòrr obrach airson sin a dhèanamh agus tha feum air proifeasantachd agus tha feum air na sgilean a tha anns na companaidhean telebhisein, chan eil teagamh.
The best thing that the broadcasting companies could do would be to co-operate with the CCG to create a new service. We do not say that broadcasters should not be involved in a Gaelic television service—we could work together to create such a service. Much work is needed to do that. The TV companies' professionalism and skills are needed.
We are focused on television, but what about the role that radio can play? Are there also opportunities in the development of Gaelic broadcast radio?
Tha, nam biodh sianal Gàidhlig ann, a-rithist, bhiodh tu ag iarraidh gu bheil rèidio agus telebhisean a' co-obrachadh le chèile. Bhiodh tu a' cleachdadh nan sgilean a tha aig daoine airson prògraman de sheòrsa ùr a dhèanamh. Ach cuideachd nam biodh sianal Gàidhlig fosgailte ceithir uairean fichead anns an là, cha chreid mise ged a bhiodh dà fhichead millean nòt againn, mar a chaidh ainmeachadh nas tràithe, cha lìon sin sianal telebhisean Gàidhlig. Dh'fheumadh tu rèidio agus prògraman fuaim a chur a-mach air an sianal sin cuideachd, agus gabhaidh sin a dhèanamh a-nis. B' urrainn dhut fiù 's cur a-mach dhà no trì sianalan fuaim còmhla ri dealbh ann an Gàidhlig, ann am Beurla agus ann an cànan sam bith eile mas e do thoil e. Dh'fheumadh an dà chuid obrachadh ri chèile airson am feum as fheàrr a dhèanamh dhen airgead a th' againn.
If a Gaelic channel were to be set up, co-operation would be needed between radio and television. That would make the best use of skills and lead to a new type of programme making. If a Gaelic channel was to be open 24 hours a day, £40 million would not be enough to fill it—radio would also be needed. Sound programmes could be broadcast on the television channel together with pictures. The two things would have to work together to make the best use of the money.
The big television companies are worried about the fragmentation that you have spoken about. However, as you rightly say, fragmentation gives opportunities for niche marketing. Of which programmes, broadcast under the name of Comataidh Craolaidh Gàidhlig, are you most proud? If CCG were to be given more airtime, what would you broadcast?
Tha mi a' freagairt na ceiste sin ann am fianais dhà no trì riochdairean telebhisein. Ma dh'ainmicheas mi aon phrògram seach prògram eile chan eil mi ag ràdh am bi mi beò a-nochd fhathast. Ach feumaidh sinn a-rèist.
I am being watched by a few television producers. If I name one programme rather than another, I may not survive.
Go on, go for it.
Do not do it. [Laughter.]
Feumaidh mi a ràdh gu bheil mar eisimpleir prògraman a mhaoinich CCG a' buannachd duaisean ann an co-fharpaisean eadar-nàiseanta, agus tha iad air buannachd BAFTAs cuideachd. A-nis, 's e rud mòr a th' ann do chompanaidh à Alba, buannachd BAFTA award, agus nuair a' smaoinicheas tu air companaidhean Gàidhlig an uair sin, a' tighinn bhon choimhearsnachd bheag tha seo, a' buannachd duaisean dhen t-seòrsa sin, tha e ag ràdh tòrr mu dheidhinn cho sgileil 's a tha na daoine againn, cho proifeasanta 's a tha iad, agus, is iongantach mur an robh a' chomataidh a' dèanamh rudeigin ceart nuair a bha sinn a' maoineachadh nam prògraman sin anns a' chiad dol a-mach. Feumaidh mi a ràdh cuideachd, nam bithinn a' dol a tharraing aonan a-mach às, tha Gàidhlig agus an t-airgead seo a' toirt dha Breatainn an aon phrògram Eòrpach a chì sibh air an telebhisean, an aon phrògram a tha a' sealltainn gnothaichean làitheil Eòrpach. Agus is e sinne a' stèidhich sin, còmhla ris a' BhBC. 'S ann a-mach às an seòrsa còmhradh a rinn sinn eadarainn a thàinig am prògram sin. Rudan dhen t-seòrsa sin, ag ràdh gu bheil sinn moiteil mu dheidhinn cuid de rudan.
Programmes that have been handled by the CCG have won prizes in international competitions. They have also won British Academy Film and Television Arts awards, which is a great thing for a company from Scotland. For a Gaelic company from this small community to win a prize like that says a lot about peoples' skills and professionalism. It also shows that our committee did something right when it funded those programmes. Gaelic, and that money, gives Britain the only European current affairs programme that is to be seen on television. It was established with the BBC and we are proud of a few programmes such as that one.
Broadly speaking, I watch only that Gaelic-speaking programme. How would you fill a schedule without even more gash stuff than is used at present? The big companies have more money and resources.
Chaidh ainmeachadh S4C nas tràithe, is chleachd mi sin mar eisimpleir. Tha màileid glè mhòr acasan, nas motha na th' againne, ach nuair a smaoinicheas tu an rud a rinn S4C nuair a fhuair iad sianal digiteach, bha S4C dìreach a' cur ceithir uairean a thìde anns an là air an adhar le faisg air ceud millean not aca, so 's e ceithir uairean a thìde san là a bha iad a' dèanamh le ceud millean not. Nuair a fhuair iad sianal digiteach, thòisich iad a' lìonadh sin, agus 's e an dòigh a bha iad ga lìonadh 's e seo—can, fèill mhòr anns a' Chuimrigh 's e an Eisteddfod, tha e mar am Mòd a th' againne agus tha thu a' cur dhaoine ann a shin le camara agus tha thu a' pàigheadh airson daoine a bhith an sin a h-uile latha san t-seachdain, fad an latha, agus bhiodh iad ag obair fad na tìde leis na camaras mar a tha na daoine sin an-dràsta gus 's e aon uair a thìde no leth-uair a thìde a gheibheadh iad aig deireadh na h-oidhche.
S4C was mentioned and I used it as an example. It has a fairly big purse—bigger than we have—but when it got a digital channel, S4C was putting four hours a day on the air for about £100 million. When it got the digital channel, it began to fill airtime.
There are some sad people who watch the Scottish Parliament all the time, too.
Tha thu ag iarraidh, an sin, ceist mhath a tha sin, anns an t-suidheachadh anns a bheil sin, dh'fheumadh tu tòiseachdainn a thogail suas ceum air cheum. Chanainn ge-tà gu feumadh sinn bho thùs faighinn co-dhiù dusan uair a thìde no fiù 's fad an là air sianal—gum feumadh an sianal a bhith ann dhuinn fad na tìde, agus gun tòisicheadh tu ga lìonadh. An-dràsta, tha na prògraman a tha sinne a' maoineachadh a' cur leth-uair a thìde anns an là a-mach air digital, air On Digital. Ghabhadh sin a thogail suas anns a' bhliadhna a tha romhainn gu uair a thìde.
That is a good question. In our situation, the channel would have to be built up step by step. At the start, we would need at least 12 hours, or perhaps all day on the channel. The channel would have to be available to us all the time, and we would start to fill it. At the moment, we are funding half an hour of programming a day on digital. That could be increased in the year to come to one hour, but it would not be worth doing that unless we were broadcasting more and more—another hour and another hour.
I will follow up the idea of a mixed channel, because there are precedents for it. As you admit, it would be difficult to take even one or two hours a day at the moment given what is happening. However, despite what Ian Jenkins said, it has been mooted that there could be a channel that covered the Scottish Parliament and its committees during the day, and which broadcast Gaelic programmes from 5 o'clock until 10 or 11 o'clock or 12 midnight, because Parliament tends to finish at 5 o'clock at night, unfortunately. There is the potential to share programmes with, and to buy them in from, Ireland, Wales and Brittany, as well as from other cultures. The matter is not just about building up a solid phalanx of Gaelic programmes to fill the airwaves; there are ways in which such a channel could benefit a range of audiences. Indeed, with the technology that is available, a simultaneous translation of the Scottish Parliament could be broadcast in Gaelic through a separate sound feed.
Bhiodh sin math, agus bhiodh an uair sin sianal agad, eadar-dhealaichte bho sianal sam bith eile a gheibh thu san dùthaich seo. Bhiodh e ùr, bhiodh measgachadh de stuth air nach fhaiceadh ann an sianal eile. Agus chan e a-mhàin Gàidhlig a' chanainn-sa a bu chòir a bhith air. Chanainn-sa gum bu chòir dhuinn mar Ghàidheil cumail a' dol an co-obrachadh a tha air a bhith eadar sinn agus na daoine a tha a' bruidhinn Doric, na daoine ann an Sealtainn a' bruidhinn an cànain aca fhèin, agus gun tòisicheadh sinn a' togail an àird còmhla ri na daoine sin, seòrsa de sianal a' sealltainn cultar na h-Alba, còmhla ris a' Phàrlamaid, agus Gàidhlig ann cuideachd. B' urrainn dhuinn sin a dhèanamh—bha mise anns a' chathair air buidheann aig Comhairle na Gaidhealtachd a rinn sin.
That would be good, because we would have a channel that was different from any other channel in this country. It would be new, and would provide programmes on a mixture of subjects that could not be seen on any other channel. It would not be only about Gaelic. We, as Gaels, ought to continue to co-operate with people who speak Doric and with people in Shetland who speak their own dialect. We should put together—with those people and the Parliament—a channel that shows the culture of Scotland. It could be done.
To come back to where we started in this discussion—the argument is that it would not need to be you, or some new organisation, that transmitted the channel. You could go from being a funder to being a commissioner of content for the Gaelic part of the channel. That joint model of operation—like that which involves the BBC and broadcasting rights for the Scottish Parliament—might be useful.
B' fhiach coimhead ris, ach feumar cuimhneachadh cuideachd an còmhradh a bh' againn o chionn deich mionaidean mu dheidhinn dè tha tachairt nuair a tha buidheann Ghàidhlig ag obair còmhla ri craoladair agus mur a bheil na priorities, mur a bheil an aon seòrsa dealbh aig na daoine sin air dè tha math airson Gàidhlig is a tha aig luchd na Gàidhlig fhèin. Dh'fhaodadh rudeigin de thrioblaid a bhith ann.
That would be worth considering. However, we must remember the conversation that we had 10 minutes ago about what happens when a Gaelic organisation works with a broadcaster. If they do not have the same priorities or the same picture of what is good for Gaelic and Gaelic speakers, there can be problems
Indeed, but as the commissioning agent for, say, four or five hours a day to start with—I would obviously support that—you could have a programming strategy for those hours that would not be affected by anyone else, because the channel would be there to fill. You would be the commissioning agent and, in another context, the operator of the multiplex. You would be operating certain hours and commissioning for those hours, and would therefore have a clear strategy for what you were trying to do. However, you would not be trying to create a new broadcasting organisation—the time is past when new broadcasting organisations will come into the market.
If you are brief, Mr Russell.
I am interested in the news programmes that you have recently tendered. I want to illustrate a difficulty that exists for you and for others—in terms of your role as a funder, rather than as a commissioner. You had a contract that was worth roughly £1 million for the news programme. Is that right?
The amount was £1.2 million.
Is it correct that you were asking the companies at tender to do those programmes for just under £0.5 million, using the facilities of Seaforth House?
Yes.
I presume that you know the contents of the Broadcasting (Independent Productions) Order 1991. It states that a production cannot be classified as independent where
Tha sin inntinneach, oir tha e ag ràdh anns an achd 1990 cuideachd mu dheidhinn CCG:
That is interesting, because the Broadcasting Act 1990 says, about the CCG, that:
I do not think that that addresses the question. I am not saying that you were acting ultra vires. Clearly, you are a cautious organisation and would not act ultra vires. Do you accept that there would be concern—this is the point that I will put to the Producers Alliance for Cinema and Television when it gives evidence to us next week—that, according to the Broadcasting (Independent Productions) Order 1991, English-speaking companies would not have accepted the condition that you required of the companies that were tendering for the Gaelic news service? That is a difficulty for Gaelic independent companies.
Chan eil mi a' tuigsinn carson, oir mura biodh rudan ri dhèanamh ann an dòigh eadar-dhealaichte, ann an Gàidhlig, cha bhiodh am buidheann seo ann. Chan urrainn dhut iarraidh oirnn dèanamh fèir an seòrsa rud a tha a' tachairt ann an craoladh Beurla.
I do not understand why. If things were not to be done in a different way in relation to Gaelic, our organisation would not exist. You cannot ask us to do exactly the same as what happens in English broadcasting.
We can ask you to abide by the law—what producers understand to be the law, and which protects the position of independent producers. That is a key point.
Bu chaomh leam aon rud eile a ràdh mu dheidhinn sin. Ma tha buidheann ann an Alba a rinn barrachd airson neo-eisimeilich Gàidhlig anns na deich bliadhna chaidh seachad, na rinn sinne, bu chaomh leam a chluinntinn. Air a' bhliadhna seo, tha iad a' faighinn faisg air dàrna leth an airgid againn. An ath-bhliadhna, gheibh iad leth-cheud 's a còig anns a' cheud dhen airgead againn, so ma tha e co-cheangailte ris an taic a tha sinn a' toirt.
I want to add one thing about that. If an organisation in Scotland has done more for Gaelic independents in the past 10 years than we have done, I would like to hear about it. This year, independent producers are getting almost half our money; next year, they will get 55 per cent of our money.
This has perhaps become arcane, convener, but that point is made on a definition of independence that many people would dispute.
I think that you are going down a particular road, Mr Russell, which is perhaps not part of this inquiry.
It is one of those words, "independence". It can mean anything.
If there are no further questions from members—
I know what it means, Frank.
Calm down, calm down.
Meeting adjourned.
On resuming—
We move on to our third set of witnesses, who are from Lèirsinn.
My colleague Catherine Ann MacNeil and I work at the Lèirsinn research centre, which is located at Sabhal Mòr Ostaig on the Isle of Skye. Thank you for the opportunity to talk to the committee and to respond to any questions that members may have arising out of our submission.
Thank you. I would be very keen to see the research papers on young people and children. They are the future of the language.
Forty-four million pounds is a lot of money. Is it best spent in the way that has been suggested so far today?
Are you talking about the intended £44 million?
Yes.
If not, we could see three hours of Gaelic television a day, which would follow a pattern that we have seen emerge in other programming. There would be repeats every few hours and a lot of dubbed programming. A decline in standards is a risk. On the other hand, it is difficult to know how to fund such a channel in any other way without being prepared to put in as much as £44 million. There needs to be a balance.
The other debate is whether Gaelic broadcasting sustains commitment to the language and whether broadcasting develops further penetration of the language. If £44 million is the available resource, how best should it be used?
The issue of whether that money would be better spent somewhere else, such as on Gaelic-medium education, is often raised. Our findings suggest that it is essential to develop a critical mass of exposure to Gaelic. When carrying out research on young people in schools, we found that, across the country, about one in three children come from homes where Gaelic is not spoken—the only Gaelic that such children get is at school. To some extent, there is a worry among educationists that that is a kind of school Gaelic, which is low in idiomatic speech. Such children get a broader exposure to Gaelic by listening to radio and television.
Does location matter? If it does, is Stornoway the right location?
I am based in Skye, so I do not have a brief on behalf of Stornoway. I would answer your question in two ways. Technically, it does not matter. Even the small, independent television companies that have operated in the Highlands and Islands have often brought in freelance crews who are based in the central belt or even further south. They have done that because they have built up long track records with those people, usually because they were on the production side at the BBC or in independent television companies before they set up their own companies. It has to be said that, very often, those people do not speak Gaelic. Although some of those small companies have a Gaelic producer and a Gaelic owner-manager, a number of the freelance team members do not speak Gaelic. That has presented some problems, particularly with editing.
We have heard much today about the location of a potential Gaelic channel, and there are obviously arguments about whether it should be located here, in a Gaelic-speaking community, or in the central belt. Are the benefits for the community and the culture and the positive spin-off for young people of such a facility being in their own back yard, rather than in the central belt, measurable? Can you gauge from your work with young people whether such a facility would be a positive development for them?
Gaelic programmes themselves are successful at involving young people, so I suppose that in many respects location does not matter. There are a number of youth programmes that involve young people at every level. Reference was made to demystifying Gaelic broadcasting for young people, and the programmes themselves do that to some extent—probably more than one would find with English language programming.
There is also a difference in a community where 65 or 75 per cent of the people are Gaelic speaking or have Gaelic-speaking parents or grandparents. If there is a service that is theirs, they have a sense of identity with it. Young people tell us in surveys that the programming must acknowledge their sense of identity and their Gaelic roots as well as being the kind of programmes that they would want to watch in English.
We have to remember that those young people are located not only in the Highlands and Islands. A substantial number of young people in the central belt are going through Gaelic-medium education. That sense of ownership is as important to them as it is to young people in the Highlands and Islands.
We also want to attract them back. We may have the University of the Highlands and Islands, but many young people are still going to Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen. They are getting skills—we want those skills here.
That debate will take place and it will rage. When a community is losing skills in any industry at an alarming rate, anything that can positively enforce the culture in which people are brought up might be helpful and worth pursuing.
What matters is that youngsters from the area can train in the area. It does not matter whether they end up working in the central belt or in London, as long as they go on those training programmes to learn their craft. The training provided at Sabhal Mòr Ostaig and Lews Castle College is to a national standard; they are trained to work in either language.
The material in your submission on education is strong and convincing on the potential for television expansion—and its effect on children—for people at home and when they are being educated. I totally accept the idea of community ownership.
I was slightly surprised at your submission when you dealt with the single channel for Gaelic. You state:
Seventy-four per cent of 50,000 or 60,000 Gaelic speakers is quite a small number. You went on to say:
In certain areas, many people cannot even see all the terrestrial channels, so there is reluctance to spend a lot of money until they have seen what digital television looks like and have heard about it. There is conservatism about digital broadcasting, which has come through in the work that we have been doing with the community.
We monitor uptake of the new digital technology. It has been slower among the Gaelic-speaking viewers than has been observed at national level. As Bob Stradling said, there is conservatism; people are not sure what will happen. However, of those who have subscribed to digital, three quarters have opted for digital satellite—that is important.
I want to ask about two separate things, one of which follows on from what has just been said. If a digital channel were established—and I am an unequivocal supporter of such a channel—its existence would surely attract and build its own audience. Indeed, the sooner a channel was available, the more likely it is that people would switch to that enhanced service. Do you have any research findings that back that up?
Not at the moment.
Will you look into it?
It depends on whether we are asked to.
Unfortunately, the committee has no budget for that, although I am sure that others sitting in this room have.
We are talking about a long process. Recently, we have written reports about Gaelic learners and non-Gaelic-speaking parents of children in Gaelic-medium education. Clearly, the education authorities, the broadcasting bodies and all the agencies involved in promoting Gaelic should get together on the whole issue of Gaelic learners. I am such a learner myself, although it might be better to describe me as lapsed.
We would all sympathise with that.
However, such a situation might take 10, 15 or 20 years to come about. I realise that I am not speaking as a researcher when I say that the data we have collected show that an integrated strategy for the development of Gaelic—which would include broadcasting—is clearly required.
I want to develop that point. The council representatives mentioned the need for short-term and long-term strategies. Although there is no doubt that a short-term strategy is required, we should realise that no matter how successful short-term strategies have been in other areas or individually in Gaelic television, they have not halted the decline in the number of Gaelic speakers. Indeed, that decline has accelerated. In such circumstances, we should be considering both short-term strategies that cement the present situation and long-term strategies that help us to recover from it. Are you suggesting that the agencies are not working together on such broader thinking?
Yes, that is the first point I would make. The second point is that, in the short term, we need to examine how Gaelic learners use television, which is something that we have been doing in our research. You mentioned involving people in the community in programming and so on. That is perhaps some way down the line, but they see Gaelic television—not just learner programmes such as "Speaking Our Language", but programmes that have subtitles and which might be interactive to some extent—as a means of honing their language skills and hearing an idiomatic language. That is as crucial as the need for language-learning courses.
And your research shows that quality is also a key issue.
Yes.
I refer next to your panel. Your paper outlines the operation of the panel, which we broadly understand. However, in the CCG's decision-making process, what cognisance does it take of—and what value does it place on—the outcomes of your panel?
The panel has provided the CCG with a wealth of data. With our weekly data, we can build up a long-term picture that allows us to consider different trends. The research is used in the CCG's decision-making processes.
That is therefore a valuable tool for any organisation that is involved in broadcasting, as it gives such organisations a more in-depth examination of audience reaction than they could obtain through a Broadcasters Audience Research Board survey. Do you regard it as an integral tool in making decisions on funding?
Yes.
Yes. We believe that it should be. Obviously, we are biased, but we believe that it is a more useful tool than BARB surveys, given that the number of Gaelic speakers within the BARB panels is very small. The extrapolations from that are, to us, quite worrying.
So you do qualitative and quantitative research for the CCG, to provide it with a key tool in the decision-making process. Do we see the fruits of that on screen?
One of the key trends that we have identified in the research over 10 years is a more discerning audience. I do not mean that to sound patronising. Initially, in the first two or three years of Gaelic broadcasting, there was such delight that any programmes were being broadcast that people were happy to watch them. Mostly, they were watching the programmes because they were in the Gaelic language. If the programmes were criticised, it tended to be because of the quality of the Gaelic. We now find, with more and more programmes, that people are watching as a critical audience: they are into production values and complain about a programme with talking heads. We feed those comments back regularly. We have seen an improvement in the quality of programming.
It seems to me that quality is the criterion. The breadth of experience could be brought to bear on that. The fact that people from the islands get a chance to go to other parts of Scotland and Europe to share experiences brings quality back to the product, which can enhance it and, de facto, therefore helps the audience figures and the language. We come back again to the way in which we can celebrate the fact that people move: the social mobility and awareness that that brings can help the eventual product.
There is not a strong feeling within the Gaelic communities that Gaelic broadcasting should be something precious that is separate from Scottish culture. They want it to be an integral part of Scottish culture. Some of the new programmes have been targeted at young people. There was a gap in the youth market. The programmes that are now coming out are very much about the experiences that young people have when they leave the islands and go to university in Glasgow and Edinburgh, rather than there being, as some would have said a few years ago, too many programmes about people who left the islands 20 years ago and have come back to retire. We have moved away from nostalgic programmes to ones that are seen as more relevant to being Scottish as well as being Gaelic.
Mike Russell and I have had a discussion in the past few weeks about the quality of production values in the programmes that are broadcast. How important is that, in the discernment of the audience?
Our audience is clearly becoming more aware of production values in its ratings of programmes. Expectations of Gaelic programmes are high among Gaelic-speaking viewers. They are not looking just for information or entertainment. They are also interested in the language and the values that are being conveyed. They want the language to be supported. They have much higher expectations for Gaelic broadcasting than for any English-language programme that they may choose to watch.
There is a great deal of funding for Gaelic-language documentaries. However, the younger generation would like a wider range of programmes, which the older generation might not see as quality broadcasting. There is a new programme on Radio nan Gaidheal called Rapal. It has a Gaelic-speaking presenter, but the pop songs that it plays are by Eminem, Robbie Williams and so on. One sign of a language coming of age is that people forget why they are listening to it and take it for granted as a medium of communication. The younger generation may have different notions of quality and different production values.
Thank you for your evidence. If you would like to send us any further information, we would be happy to receive it.
Tapadh leibhse, a neach-gairm agus buill na Pàrlamaid. Is mise Agnes Rennie agus is mi cathraiche Pròiseact nan Ealan. Chan eil mi air a bhith san dreuchd ach bho chionn beagan is bliadhna. Mar sin dheth, as dèidh facal no dhà a ràdh san fharsaingeachd airson dealbh a thoirt air an ùidh a tha agam fhìn san obair seo, bheir mi cothrom do stiùiriche na buidhne, Calum MacIlleathain, cur ris na tha san tagradh againn.
Thank you, convener and members of the Parliament. My name is Agnes Rennie and I am the chairman of Pròiseact nan Ealan. I have held that post for only a year, so after saying a few words I will hand over to the director of the organisation, Malcolm Maclean, who will add to the submission that we have made to the committee.
Tha sinn mothachail gu bheil diofar dhòighean air tighinn gu craobh-sgaoileadh Gàidhlig. Tha diofar sheallaidhean a dh'fhaodadh am buidheann nàiseanta airson deasachadh nan ealainean Gàidhlig ann an Alba a chleachdadh airson sùil a chur do chraobh-sgaoileadh Gàidhlig. Tha sinn a' tighinn thuige bho shealladh no perspective chultarach. Tha am pàipear againn a' feuchainn ri an sealladh sin a dhèanamh cho soilleir agus cho làidir 's is urrainn dha a dhèanamh.
The Gaelic Arts Agency is aware that there are many ways of approaching Gaelic broadcasting, although we try to have a perspective that is as clear and strong as possible. We have been involved in the arts in what might be thought of as a peculiar situation—there are no commercial or institutional interests to protect the situation that we are in today. However, we are co-operating with people who have been involved in Gaelic broadcasting in the past 10 years. That has given us an opportunity to build up a new and innovative method of working in Gaelic broadcasting, at least in some situations. We have also had an opportunity to co-operate on some programmes.
I enjoyed section 5 of your submission about the impact on the development of Gaelic arts and education and I shall read out for the record your views. The submission sets out your approach to cultural activity, not broadcasting as a whole. It states:
I thought that I was being mild. That is an understatement.
To give those who have not read your submission a flavour of it, can you tell us about one or two areas in which culture has been developed by the presence of CCG and its funding? You talked about a step change in the whole of Gaelic culture when the CCG first received the money. Can you explain what has been valuable?
Speaking from an arts and cultural perspective, the reality is that the funding that was drawn into Gaelic television through the CCG has been by far the most significant investment in Gaelic culture and economy. It has ensured that a level of funding has come into the Gaelic cultural economy that it would not otherwise have received. It is unlikely that it would have come from any other direction. Such investment in the Gaelic cultural economy has enabled us, as a Gaelic development agency with a specific locus in the arts, to develop various projects that have, because of their link with broadcasting, opened up arts initiatives to a much wider audience.
You advocate having a single channel for Gaelic. If a great amount of time were to be filled, might whoever was commissioning the work come under the kind of pressure to achieve high ratings and so on, as happens in the other channels, or would the channel be a purer than pure public service and be concerned only with good cultural stuff?
Good cultural stuff should also be capable of attracting good ratings. Problems would begin to arise only if ratings were used to determine our sense of culture. By its nature, broadcasting is competitive and broadcasters have to be preoccupied with ratings to a degree that can be contradictory in the context of Gaelic television development.
I also enjoyed your submission, which was didactic and aggressive and made all the relevant points. It was also generous, especially in the last two bullet points of part 6. We are told that the new channel should
We do not have a fixed position on how a dedicated digital Gaelic broadcaster might be delivered. As you said earlier, there is a difference between the transmission of the programmes and the question of who runs the service. The key point relates to who runs the service rather than the mechanism by which the service is delivered. We have no position on the mechanism, but we have a position on the management and strategic direction of the service.
Nevertheless, the idea of a Scottish cultural channel, of which Gaelic would be an integral part, is attractive. Given your work with arts organisations in other parts of Scotland, do you think that an interest in such a channel exists elsewhere?
Yes.
Is that interest sustainable?
Yes.
What is your time scale for progress? If you could look into a crystal ball, where would you say the idea was going and how quickly?
Unfortunately, we do not have a crystal ball any more than you do. Given that a changeover date has not yet been set, it is clear that the time frames that confront digital television are elastic. It is becoming clear that Gaelic television is in a position to take a lead on the issue because of its history, incentives in terms of urgency and the basic infrastructure it has developed.
Why does your submission say that such a channel
In saying that, I pick up on the Gaelic task force's report to the Executive last year. The report identifies three distinct Gaelic communities. I say straight away that I am a Glasgow Gael. I speak as someone from Govan—
Which is separate from the rest of Glasgow anyway.
Exactly.
That is the fourth community.
Yes. The Macpherson report is correct in identifying three Gaelic communities, which have different needs and different dynamics. Each has serious needs and its own internal dynamics, as I said. However, as a general principle I do not think that there is an example anywhere in the world of a language community that has survived without having a heartland.
The question of added value comes up very often in respect of the investment of public moneys and it has already been touched on several times today. The arts sector and the way in which CCG funds have been used through the arts agency is one of the best examples of added value that we have, in terms of training, performance and the output from those training courses in the provision of practitioners and artists—if I may make that distinction—who have then gone on to perform and participate and, in some cases, to set up their own companies. The leverage that in some cases is then available for further public investment through the lottery, the millennium fund and European fund investment, also provides an interesting example of how very small pockets of money in communities such as this can have a substantial, significant added-value effect.
I have taken up the challenge; I have worked my crystal ball. I am looking for a model in Europe that has a very effective devolved parliamentary structure, with the two Parliaments having responsibilities for slightly different areas in broadcasting, culture and language development. Which parts of Europe seem to be getting that balance between the role of the centre and decentralisation right, which enhances the development of the relevant culture and language? What can we learn? Which parts of Europe should we look at as models of, or for inspiration for, getting the balance right?
The first place that it occurs to me to suggest is Spain, specifically Catalonia. We have collaborated not only with the British Council in Catalonia, but with other arts organisations there. As a consequence of that connection, we have been fortunate enough to have had exposure to, and an opportunity to be educated to a certain level about, the dynamics of cultural policy in Catalonia.
It strikes me that the debate is about recognising where influence can be brought to bear where appropriate. I think that it is a case of trying to find ways of doing that. People have different experiences of what their language and culture have been.
We can learn from some of what has already been done, and not just in Catalonia: there may be other countries that have gone through the process of decentralisation and devolution. We could learn about the balance that they achieve between central and devolved roles.
You are absolutely right. However, we should consider what the Catalans have managed to do with their programme of normalisation. Twenty years ago, in the aftermath of Franco's death, it was highly controversial. Many people in Catalonia did not believe that it would be possible to reverse language decline because it had gone too far. The progress that has been made in the normalisation of Catalan is an example of what can be achieved.
You mentioned in one of your responses to Michael Russell that you felt that Gaelic arts and culture have been squeezed off the schedules. Some of the most successful CCG-supported programming certainly seems to fall into the news, current affairs, documentary and educational categories, although drama, for instance, has not featured significantly or successfully. Why is that? Are you disappointed that that is the case? Given that English speakers can access news, current affairs and documentaries in English, perhaps drama is a way of getting a bigger audience among English speakers who are just attracted to a good quality drama. Could your organisation have been, or should it now be, proactive in encouraging more drama productions on to Gaelic television?
When I responded earlier and referred to arts programmes being squeezed off the schedules, I was talking more about mainstream English-language broadcasting than about the CCG's menu of programmes. That said, I agree about the power and accessibility of drama and the extent to which drama in particular offers ways of attracting audiences that do not consist of fluent Gaelic speakers.
Thank you for your time and evidence. If there is any supplementary evidence that you wish us to have, do not hesitate to send it to the committee.
It has been a long afternoon for members, but it is encouraging and important for us to see the committee here. Although I can speak the indigenous language, I will speak in English to—I hope—increase our engagement.
I thank Dr MacLeod for his comments.
Education has been around for a long time. Gaelic-medium education has not. It is more recent and it must be nurtured in every possible way. The question must be asked, "In what Gaelic society do the youngsters who are going through Gaelic-medium education live?" We must also ask, "How do they use Gaelic?" and, "What use will Gaelic be to them?" I often think of children in Dunfermline, or wherever, who are learning Gaelic. In those places, the challenge is to make that learning meaningful and purposeful. The challenge is also to motivate them to learn and to use Gaelic. Gaelic literature and Gaelic history would enrich those youngsters' education. However, on-going Gaelic broadcasting would enrich them most of all. Broadcasting is the bread and butter of contemporary life—it is even more generic a medium than is formal education.
Do you believe that CCG has helped Gaelic-medium education?
Yes. You have had quite a bit of evidence of that and more could be said. The prime example is a series called "Speaking our Language", which became very well known throughout Scotland. It had a lot of interest and generated many classes. It was a great beginning, but so many of those initiatives are just beginnings. It is sustained development that is so expensive and needs an infrastructure and good will to support it. To the extent that it could, CCG has provided a great help for education. The evidence of those researching such matters backs that up.
I would like to say how much I enjoyed what you described as "random comments"—they were very much to the point. The purpose of our inquiry is to support and encourage the further development of Gaelic broadcasting and to do so by engaging the Scottish Parliament with the issue. It is not just a broadcasting issue. Broadcasting is a reserved matter and is therefore not something on which we can make decisions. However, we must engage with broadcasting as a matter of considerable interest both in Gaelic and within the cultural life of Scotland.
I have been involved in broadcasting and giving evidence on it for many years. The first committee to which I gave evidence was the Crawford committee in the 1970s. We have been through the same thing with the Annan reports and with every other group that has considered the problem and tried to solve it.
Some groups have made contributions.
Yes, they have. Calum MacDonald set up the task force, which has reported. The delivery of its report has been arranged to coincide with the broadcasting legislation. After such a remarkable election result, we hope that the Government will go ahead and implement that.
Are you saying that the Education, Culture and Sport Committee and the Scottish Parliament should have no legitimate role or not take part in legitimate discussion of the matter? I find that surprising.
I have not said that.
You were edging towards it. Perhaps you would like to edge away?
What I edge towards is for me to say. I did not edge towards that at all. I welcome the committee and I am very pleased that you are here.
Indeed, we have been engaged in that debate for a long time.
Yes, we have, and it is important to recognise that this is a language initiative—for Gaelic and for Gaels. How to sustain service within that provision will be up for discussion. However, it must never be seen that the tail is wagging the dog and that we are getting the money for the sustaining service and that Gaelic comes as a small part of that.
I entirely agree.
I am very pleased that you agree.
I am delighted that I agree with you.
Gaelic society has many lacks and shortcomings. An education service that deals with the community and is a wide community service—which is and has been close to my heart and yours—can be very effective, as can journalism and a building up of awareness of what is happening. Again, the issue is about infrastructure and which parts of Gaelic society are strongly developed and which are not.
There is a debate as to whether that was feasible. Structures elsewhere encouraged that to happen and it may not be too late for it to happen.
The transitional stage towards digital is crucial. The Milne committee spent a lot of time considering that and trying to understand what to do as we move towards digital and, I hope, a full channel. In the meantime, what can be done? Can extra funding be made available in the short term? If so, that would have to be done as the situation is at the moment rather than from a declining fund.
There is a debate as to whether those steps are necessary. That is the point of the questioning. There are arguments on both sides. We have to accept that the argument about how things develop is a positive sign that the Scottish Parliament and others are engaging with this extremely important issue.
You sound very defensive, Mr Russell.
I do not think that I sound defensive. The implication that in some sense there is no other way of doing things worries me. That is a very determinist way of looking at the world.
The CCG is oriented to problem solving, developing things and bringing things forward. That is part of its work. I hope that its work will be not to keep the status quo in place, but to be innovative. That is its task. To work with it and for bodies such as Parliament to work with it is very welcome.
For once, I will try to make things more mellow than they have been in the past two or three minutes.
What a pity.
You asked earlier why we were here.
Yes, but in a generous way.
I accept that—and the answer, without being too complex about it, is because it matters. That may sound trite, but that is why we are here. Those of us who perhaps have not had this level of exposure to the Gaelic language—or to other minority languages and cultures—can welcome that exposure. In my constituency, Irish traditional culture is developing. Scots-born people are trying to redefine and remember their roots, but they are doing so within modern Scotland and therefore getting the best of both worlds.
However, the most intriguing sentence is your final one:
Everything that I have said about the role of Gaeldom in modern Scotland. Here we are, building up a strong infrastructure to enrich the picture of Scotland. People should not hide others away and say, "Oh, those are the Gaels, up in a little corner by themselves." Economic necessity, if nothing else, has made the Gaels outward-going—like the Irish that you mentioned—in order to play a full part in Scottish life and in Scottish city life, as you know very well.
Thank you very much for the evidence that you have given. A number of Gaels in the Parliament are pushing very strongly for Gaelic to be included—not least your own MSP, Alasdair Morrison. I thank everyone who has given evidence this afternoon. In particular, I thank Màiri Anna Dhòmhnallach and Doileag Nicleòid for their help with the interpretation to us non-Gaels. [Applause.]
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