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Chamber and committees

Public Petitions Committee, 08 Sep 2009

Meeting date: Tuesday, September 8, 2009


Contents


Current Petitions


Sleep Apnoea (PE953)

The Convener:

Item 2 is consideration of current petitions, the first of which is PE953, from Ms Jean Gall, on behalf of the Scottish Association of Sleep Apnoea, which urges the Parliament to urge the Government to increase awareness of sleep apnoea, promote its proper diagnosis and treatment and provide sufficient resources, including adequately funded sleep centres, to tackle the health problems that are associated with the condition. I am aware that Christine Grahame has expressed an interest in this petition before. I invite her to make a contribution.

I do not have the paperwork for today's meeting, so I will listen to the committee members first, if you do not mind.

The Convener:

We have been exploring issues to do with the managed clinical networks approach and so on with the Government health directorates, but we have reached an impasse in our ability to influence things any further. At the moment, we do not think that we can contribute much more. That is why I was inviting you to comment; I know that you like a battle.

Christine Grahame:

Thank you for that lead-in. I am aware that I am sitting at the table with another member of the Health and Sport Committee. I suggest that you remit the petition to the Health and Sport Committee. I am most concerned that the petition has been batted about for a very long time, given that sleep apnoea is a serious condition with serious social impacts. I can tell by the number on the petition that it has been going for a long time, but nothing has been done. I am keen for something to be done. I see Bill Butler nodding, although I do not know whether he agrees with me. There might be spaces in the Health and Sport Committee's timetable to conduct a short inquiry, although that is a matter for the committee.

We always welcome it when other committee conveners offer to lessen the workload of this committee. That is why you saw us all popping up like meerkats when you suggested remitting the petition to the Health and Sport Committee.

I have to say that we have not had many petitions remitted to us in this period.

Now that you have said that, we would love to remit more to you.

Given that the convener of the Health and Sport Committee has made such a compelling argument for our remitting the petition to her committee, it would be ill-mannered of us not to do so.

Are there any other comments?

Jamie McGrigor:

Some of the hospitals in my area are looking into this condition much more seriously than they used to. They are producing machines that people can take away to test themselves, which is a very good thing. Sleep apnoea is one of those conditions of which people are becoming much more aware, so something should be done.

The Convener:

We have been encouraged by your very receptive contribution, Christine. We are happy to try to work with the Health and Sport Committee. We will refer the information to you. Some progress has been made, but you might be able to do more to assist and to broaden out the support.

I was not stating that this committee had not made progress, but external agencies have not made the progress that we sought.

It would be helpful for the Parliament to have the Health and Sport Committee deal with some aspects of the issue, because we are getting different responses from different health boards. Does the committee accept the recommendations?

Members indicated agreement.


Broken Glass (PE986)<br />Beverage Containers (PE1145)

The Convener:

The next two petitions are grouped together. PE986, from primary 6 and 7 at Woodlands primary school, was submitted a few years ago. The pupils are now in senior school and will probably conclude their highers this year—that shows how long the petition has been in the system. The petition calls on the Parliament to urge the Government to take greater action to protect the public by promoting the use of plastic bottles as an alternative to glass and highlights the way in which broken glass in public places can impact on children's play and activity. PE1145, from Dr Alexander Gemmell, calls on the Parliament to urge the Government to introduce a statutory deposit-and-return scheme on all used beverage containers. Both petitions have been with us for a while, and we have explored some of the issues that they raise. I invite comments from committee members.

Bill Butler:

Like other members, I am aware that the Scottish Government has taken a number of measures. It is committed to tackling antisocial behaviour relating to littering and has launched a strategy. There is the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009, of which the whole Parliament can be justly proud. We have reached the stage at which we should consider closing the petitions.

Marlyn Glen:

I agree, but it might be useful for us to pass on to the minister the letter that we have received from Cathy Macleod, the class teacher. She suggested that an award to industry be named after the school, to acknowledge the work that the children have done.

Do members endorse that recommendation and agree to close both petitions?

Members indicated agreement.


Common Good Sites (Protection) (PE1050)

The Convener:

PE1050, from Councillor Ann Watters, calls on the Parliament to urge the Government to introduce legislation to provide better protection for common good sites such as Ravenscraig park in Kirkcaldy and to ensure that such assets are retained for their original purposes for future generations. Our background briefing indicates that Audit Scotland is completing its assessment of progress by local authorities on compiling common good asset registers and that we are waiting for it to provide us with further information on the issue. I know that the issue has been raised in questions in the Parliament in the past few months. I suggest that we postpone consideration of the petition until we get further clarification from Audit Scotland.


Violence against Women (PE1103)

The Convener:

PE1103, from Susan Moffat, calls on the Parliament to urge the Government to prioritise the continuing development of strategic work on violence against women by following a prevention of violence against women and children approach, making adequate provision of quality support services for women and children, and providing appropriate and effective legal protection for women and children. The petition has been in front of us previously and is part of the broader debate on tackling violence in Scotland, especially violence against women in Scotland. I know that members have expressed interest in and views on those matters in the past.

How does the committee suggest that we take forward the petition? A major statement has been made and a strategy has been accepted and consented to by the Parliament. The strategy has cross-party and individual parliamentarian support and takes into account the three areas of concern that the petitioner has identified. The Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2009, which amended the legislation relating to violence against women, also received the Parliament's overall support.

Marlyn Glen:

The document to which you referred, "Safer Lives: Changed Lives", is really helpful and there is now a shared approach. My reservation is that, although we have a shared understanding and an increased focus, closing the petition would be almost like saying, "There's a document on the shelf, so it's solved." Obviously, just having a document on the shelf does not solve the problem. The petitioner was asking for adequate provision of quality support services and I am not confident that that part of the petition has been addressed, although I realise that steps have been taken towards it.

Nigel Don:

I and others on the Justice Committee, which dealt with the Sexual Offences (Scotland) Bill, know that very well. It is a fact that we rewrote the law in Scotland significantly. The intention was for the law to protect women better and I think that, in time, it will. However, if I were an ordinary member of the public who reads the press and listens to the television and radio, I would not have noticed that the bill had been passed. I therefore wonder to what extent the things that we have done to change the law, as that bill did, have registered with wider society.

I echo Marlyn Glen's comment that we can have documents on the shelf—whether strategy documents or acts of Parliament—that will not have much effect until they translate into the population's understanding. I wonder whether we should ask the Government what it is doing to engage the hearts and minds of Scottish people to bring about the cultural change that is underpinned by the documents and the law but will not just happen.

The Convener:

The petitioner has asked for a commitment to a three Ps approach, and such an approach is contained in the policy framework that has been adopted by the Government and endorsed by the Parliament. However, Marlyn Glen has, quite rightly, identified that, as always with these things, the issue is the delivery of the policy and the monitoring and support for it on the ground. That is always dependent on getting a matching level of national and local resources.

We may want to ask whether an action plan will follow the policy framework, against which we can measure delivery of the policy. If we got a response on that from the Government, that would allow us at least to make a final decision on whether to continue or close consideration of the petition.

That is exactly what we should do. Any Government or authority that comes up with a strategy should always be asked for an action plan and what it is going to measure.

Okay. We will keep the petition open and explore that. The petition will come back to us in the next couple of months, depending on the speed of the response from the appropriate minister and department.


Transport Strategies (PE1115)

The Convener:

The next petition is PE1115, from Caroline Moore, on behalf of the Campaign to Open Blackford Railway Again, which calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Government to ensure that national and regional transport strategies consider and focus on public transport solutions such as the reopening of Blackford railway station, which is identified as a priority action in the latest Tayside and central regional transport strategy. Richard Simpson MSP, who covers the area, has expressed an interest in the matter in the past. I invite him to introduce the subject, after which we will determine what to do with the petition.

Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab):

The new material that is in front of the committee is the Tayside and central Scotland transport partnership report. It suggests that upgrading Gleneagles station at a cost of £3.75 million is preferable to the reopening of Blackford station at a reputed cost—it is disputed by the campaigners—of £4.5 million. As part of the original Victorian network, we have a station that was built to serve a hotel and a station that was built to serve a community. The problem is that, when Beeching decided which one he was going to close, he decided that the one that served the hotel and those who came up to shoot on the moors in Perthshire was much more important than the one that served the community of Blackford. That might have been correct in the 1960s, but I suggest that it is not appropriate today.

Furthermore, the important issue is that Gleneagles station is wholly inadequate for modern purposes. I doubt whether the suggested amount of £3.75 million will meet the requirements. The requirements are not only to provide disabled access, although that is a major problem at the moment. People have to telephone Perth station to have somebody come down to Gleneagles with the right equipment to get them across the track. That is unbelievably difficult. It does not seem appropriate to spend a lot of money on disabled access when there is a perfectly good station waiting to be reopened that has easy disabled access.

The forthcoming Ryder cup in 2014 provides impetus and is why proposals for Gleneagles station have come on the map again. However, that station will simply not serve the needs of the event adequately. About 150,000 to 200,000 people will come, and many of them might choose to come by train. Car parking in the Gleneagles area is not good. By 2014, we need good access by train for the Ryder cup. Blackford would provide that, whereas Gleneagles does not. I have a photograph of a notice that was at the station for the Johnnie Walker championship the other week. I do not know whether it has been submitted to the committee, but it states:

"No foot access to the golf. Please wait for the Shuttle".

People cannot walk to the golf course from Gleneagles station. The golf course was built round the hotel, but people cannot walk there from the station because it is too dangerous and the road access is bad.

There are issues of social justice, which I do not think the committee has considered previously, and other arguments. Many of the 315 staff at Highland Spring have said that they would travel to work by train if Blackford station was open. Highland Spring is about to spend £30 million on extending its property. It has indicated its willingness to consider freight transport, which at present is not possible, but which could be part of a redevelopment without great cost. There are substantial housing developments in the area. Perth and Kinross is predicted to be a major population growth area and, within that, the Blackford-Auchterarder area is a considerable growth area.

One final factor that has not been brought out hitherto is that the pressure down the line on Dunblane station is becoming intolerable. Car parking at Dunblane is causing massive problems. The town has just received money for town centre regeneration, but part of that will probably have to be spent on car parking to accommodate cars that come from the Sheriffmuir-Blackford-Auchterarder area. People cannot park at Gleneagles station at present and, as far as I can see, the new plan contains nothing about developing the necessary car parking at Gleneagles.

Although the COBRA campaigners did not want the issue to come down to a competition between Gleneagles and Blackford, that is what is happening. I hope that the committee will wish to make further inquiries. Members will probably have seen my parliamentary question on the issue and my oral questioning of the Minister for Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change, who indicated that he is impressed by the campaign and the material that has been produced. If we are to cope adequately with the Ryder cup, we must open Blackford station. I ask the committee to keep the petition open, pending further costings and information that I hope will be produced.

I wonder whether Dr Simpson could help me with one fact. I can visualise the road but, as is the way with such roads, I cannot tell you how far Gleneagles is from Blackford.

I am not sure. I think that it is about 2.5 miles or 3.5 miles. It is not really walkable from Auchterarder, either. At the moment, it is in the middle of nowhere.

I was just trying to compare that distance to the distance from Leuchars station to St Andrews. People take a shuttle bus or a taxi ride for that, so the situation here is not terribly different from that at the home of golf.

You are right. Once the decision is made to spend money on Gleneagles, I suspect that that will be the end of the matter for at least 10 to 15 years for Blackford, which has a hugely growing population.

Is it accepted by all concerned that it is not practical to have both stations, in essence because of timetabling issues and the length of time that it takes trains to stop at a station?

That is correct. An hourly service to Perth is to be developed and it is proposed that the service will stop at Gleneagles, but there is no way that trains can stop at Gleneagles and Blackford.

So there is no sense in having both stations—we have to go for one or t'other.

Dr Simpson:

There is no sense in that in my view. Blackford is flat and has easy access. There is a signalling station next door, so a new one would not be required. The local bus companies are willing to provide a shuttle service between the station and Auchterarder and even Gleneagles hotel. The taxi drivers are also quite keen on doing that.

Bill Butler:

Having heard Dr Simpson's view, we could perhaps suspend the petition for about four months, which is the timeframe for Transport Scotland to consider the proposals that are laid out in the study. That is a reasonable way to proceed: we will see what Transport Scotland, in its wisdom, has to say.

John Wilson:

In light of Richard Simpson's comments, it would be useful to support Bill Butler's suggestion. We can write to Transport Scotland to get its estimate of the usage of the two stations if Blackford were reopened. As Richard Simpson indicated, the Highland Spring development and others are taking place in Blackford, along with a lot of new house building.

Are we servicing a hotel and its clientele, as Richard Simpson mentioned, or are we servicing a community? We need to find out whether Transport Scotland is taking that into consideration in making its final decision about which station to fund.

Dr Simpson:

That would be very helpful. One estimate states that there would be 5,000 additional passengers if Blackford were reopened, and zero if Gleneagles were enhanced. However, I should point out that the figure that was given for Alloa, which was the line that I was fighting for in 1999 when I was first elected, was 150,000, but the number has turned out to be 400,000. I do not really trust those estimates, and they certainly do not seem to take into account either the growth in the population due to new housing, or the fact that it is hoped that a tourism complex will be built that will add another 300 staff and 1,300 tourists to the immediate Blackford area.

The Convener:

We will take the recommendation to suspend the petition while we await further deliberations and observations. The committee is happy to receive further submissions from the petitioners if they have any more up-to-date information. I recognise the contribution that Dr Simpson has made. We will keep the petition open and bring it back to the committee at a future date.


Nature Conservation (Scotland) Act 2004 (Snares) (PE1124)

The Convener:

PE1124, which the committee has considered on a number of occasions, is from Louise Robertson, on behalf of the League Against Cruel Sports, and it calls on the Parliament to urge the Government to amend the Nature Conservation (Scotland) Act 2004 to introduce provisions to ban the manufacture, sale, possession and use of all snares.

We have not had as many answers as we have sought on the petition. I am conscious of time, and I do not think there has been any disagreement in the past from committee members that we wish to continue with the petition and pursue the areas that are unresolved, with regard to getting a response from the minister and from departments. Do members agree?

Members indicated agreement.


Scottish Agricultural Wages Board (PE1139)

The Convener:

PE1139, by John Quigley, on behalf of Unite, calls on Parliament to urge the Government to retain the Scottish Agricultural Wages Board as a separate body and to expand its remit to cover all workers in the agricultural sector, including those who work in private and ornamental gardens and in all types of fish farming.

Members have a copy of the correspondence, and a news release from the Scottish Government on the Scottish Agricultural Wages Board. Are there any comments?

John Wilson:

As a member of Unite—I want that on the record—I welcome the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth's decision, which was announced on Thursday afternoon in response to a parliamentary question from John Park, that the Scottish Agricultural Wages Board will be retained for another two years and reviewed in 2011. The petition has been very successful.

I stress that the Scottish Agricultural Wages Board deals not only with wages, but with the conditions of agricultural workers. It is important that we make that point, because many people forget that the board was established also to deal with agricultural workers' conditions.

Nigel Don:

Can anyone—perhaps John Wilson—tell me whether the decision covers everything in the petition? The retention of the board hit the headlines, but the petition also mentions the expansion of the board's remit to cover all workers in various other areas. Has that been achieved, or should we still be considering it?

John Wilson:

I asked on Thursday afternoon about the board's role and remit and whether that remit had been extended, but I did not get a clear answer from the cabinet secretary. On the basis of the press release, I assume that the full text of the petition was not taken on board when the cabinet secretary made his decision.

Bill Butler:

As a member of the GMB, I congratulate colleagues in Unite on their campaign to retain the Scottish Agricultural Wages Board, which is essential. I also thank the Government for seeing the irrefutable case for its retention.

We should write to the minister on Nigel Don's question. It has been said somewhere, although not in the press release, that the board's remit has been extended. If it has been extended, we should congratulate the Government for that; if it has not, we should ask why not.

Okay. We will continue the petition, explore those issues and try to satisfy the petitioner's ambition.

Just in case, I declare that I am also a member of Unite.


Disabled Parking (PE1149)

The Convener:

PE1149, by Kenny Shand, on behalf of Disability Help Scotland, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to introduce legislation to allow for parking bays for disabled drivers with mobility impairments—for example, outside that person's home—to be allocated specifically to the person who made the application and for such bays to be legally enforceable. Do members have comments?

Nigel Don:

I have read the petition, I understand people's positions and still think that there is a real issue. When I was a councillor, the biggest thing in my area was a large hospital. Constituents who lived within a few hundred yards of that hospital's entrance and who needed disabled access parking bays would find that somebody had come along during the day and parked in their bay in order to be very close to the hospital, for obvious reasons. The bay was therefore simply not available to them, and it was extremely difficult for them to find somewhere else they could park, while the other person could have found somewhere else to park in the hospital area.

Everybody understands everybody else's position on the matter, but it seems to me that to have a general rule whereby bays cannot be enforced causes problems that we ought to try to find a way of avoiding. I accept that doing so is difficult because, in general, it is probably better if bays are available to anyone who is entitled to use them.

When I was walking in my home city of Aberdeen only a few weeks ago, a large vehicle parked in a bay that was marked for disabled parking only. A blue badge was thrown on to the vehicle's dashboard, and four very able-bodied people got out of the vehicle and went to the shop over the road. Of course any rule in our society will be abused: that was a reminder that there are ways of abusing such bays, and is another reason why it might be sensible to have enforceable bays specifically provided for people. I am concerned that there is, in the petition, a real issue of which we should not let go entirely.

Do other members support Nigel Don or do they feel otherwise?

Robin Harper:

I have sympathy with the concerns that Nigel Don has expressed, but I am slightly confused about who has the power to issue traffic regulation orders. If local authorities have the power to issue them, surely the Government could encourage them to issue them in all cases in which there is a residential parking bay outside a disabled person's house and in which doing so is necessary.

John Wilson:

The distinction that is being made relates to the bay becoming legally enforceable for the person who applied for the bay. At present, under the regulations, a person can apply to have a bay marked outside their residence, but that bay is available to anybody who can display a blue badge. I support Nigel Don's suggestion that we write to the Government asking it to clarify its views on the idea of allocating such bays for use solely by the individuals who apply for them. We might also want to test out a couple of local authorities to find out their views on the matter.

I do not think that the problem was covered in Jackie Baillie's member's bill. She clearly intended that, when someone applied for a disabled parking bay, that bay would be for the use of any disabled person in the area. I hope that the Government will clarify its position on whether a disabled parking bay should ever be allocated to an individual or whether such bays should be available to all disabled badge holders.

Bill Butler:

I do not mind agreeing to write to the Scottish Government again, but the Government has already expressed its view that it will not introduce legislation on the issue. It views the allocation of bays to specific persons as discriminating against other blue badge holders. I do not know whether writing to the Government again would prove fruitful. If somebody can persuade me that it will be, that is fine; I am not going to die in a ditch over it. However, it seems that we have already had two answers, both of which have been in the negative.

Nigel Don:

We know the Government's view. What we must explore—if colleagues are happy with this—is whether we can persuade the Government to think again. If we ask it for its view again, we will get the same answer. One way forward might be to write to a few local authorities—I take John Wilson's point that they should perhaps be different authorities from those to which we are writing on other subjects—to find out whether the appropriate director and his or her senior traffic people feel that there is a problem. It might just be that Nigel has a bee in his bonnet about Charleston Drive outside Ninewells hospital. Elsewhere, it may not be a problem and my former constituents will just have to live with the fact that there is no general problem. However, I suspect that there are quite a number of places where local authorities could point to a problem that could be solved if they had a discretionary power to use in the particular circumstances. That is exactly the kind of power that we should, in principle, be prepared to give to local authorities when appropriate and cause for it is shown.

Marlyn Glen:

The problem probably exists all over Scotland and beyond. Constituents of mine are in the same position. From the point of view of the individual who has mobility problems, it seems to be ridiculous that they can have outside their house a space in which they cannot park when they come home and cannot then get into their house because of their mobility problem. It is an issue that we should not give up on, because there certainly is a problem.

It would not be for the Public Petitions Committee, but might the way forward be for an individual—not necessarily the petitioner—to pursue a test case to see whether they could have a personal disabled parking bay enforced outside their house?

The Convener:

I gather that the committee does not want to close the petition because there is still uncertainty over issues that need to be explored. We will pull together members' comments and pursue the matter of the decision-making process to see whether other approaches to it could be taken. We will keep the petition open and will touch on the points around which members have expressed concern.


Succession (Scotland) Act 1964 <br />(PE1154 and PE1210)

The Convener:

The next two petitions are PE1154 and PE1210.

PE1154, by Mary McIlroy Hipwell, calls on Parliament to urge the Government to amend the Succession (Scotland) Act 1964 to allow a person to leave in their will their whole estate to a surviving spouse or civil partner, and to abolish the right of adult children to claim on that estate.

PE1210, from I Chambers, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Government to ensure that rights that are granted under the Succession (Scotland) Act 1964 are enforced and that any beneficiary who has been denied their rights due to non-compliance with the act be identified and compensated.

The issue has been considered by the committee, but the legal issues have not yet been fully explored because we still await the Scottish Law Commission's final report on succession. I suggest that we postpone consideration of both petitions until we get further clarification.

We could also write to the Government to ask it to respond to the latest written comments by the PE1154 petitioner and ask whether mechanisms will be put in place for beneficiaries of trusts—including those who have inherited such a right—to be informed that they are beneficiaries. We will try to explore those issues. Is that agreed?

Members indicated agreement.


A92 Upgrade (PE1175)

The Convener:

PE1175, by Dr Robert Grant, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government immediately to improve and upgrade the A92 trunk road, particularly between Prestonhall roundabout and Balfarg junction, in order to reduce the number of hazards and accidents and to bring about improved benefits to the local and wider economy.

As with previous petitions on transport issues, we are still waiting for the completion of a Scottish transport appraisal guidance—STAG—report on the junctions and proposed improvement works. Do members agree to postpone consideration of the petition until we receive that further information over the next few months?

Members indicated agreement.


Bone Marrow Services (PE1204)

The Convener:

PE1204, from Jessie Colson, on behalf of the Richard Colson Severe Aplastic Anemia Fund, calls on Parliament to urge the Government to recognise and promote the life-saving impacts that bone marrow testing and donation can have on people with life-threatening illnesses, and to provide adequate funding to the Scottish National Blood Transfusion Service to support bone marrow services and encourage more donors.

We have considered PE1204 at length on at least two previous occasions. Do members have any recommendations on how to deal with the petition?

When we last considered petition PE1204 in May, it was agreed that the Government would meet SNBTS, the Anthony Nolan Trust and the petitioner to discuss the issues. That meeting recently took place.

Committee members should have a note of that meeting, which took place in late August. The note is included as an additional paper. It does not affect the key point on which Bill Butler was about to express a view.

Bill Butler:

We could perhaps ask the Government whether timed action points have been agreed. People are looking for a positive response from the Government—a way forward and a timeframe for action. I do not think—unless the clerk is about to advise me differently—that the Government has provided timed action points. Perhaps we could write on that basis.

Do members have other views?

Anne McLaughlin:

I see that the note of the recent meeting states that there will be

"a follow up meeting after 12 months to explore how effective the proposed measures have been".

Does that count as timed action points, or is that not specific enough?

I accept Anne McLaughlin's point, but I think that that could be pulled together with a further explanation of two or three other points that came out of the meeting. I do not think that there is any disagreement on the issue.

I think that is the timescale for reaching the objective or destination, but it would be helpful to seek clarification about points along the way.

Okay. I thank members for their patience on that.


Bus Services (Rural Areas) (PE1215)

The Convener:

PE1215, by Janie Orr, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to improve the frequency of, access to and routes of buses in rural areas—that is probably required in every constituency in Scotland—in order to increase mobility and to open up communities' access to social, entertainment and education outlets.

We have also previously considered PE1215. I do not know that the petitions process can add anything to what we have already tried to achieve.

We need to close the petition for the very good reason that it is a classic case of a petition that should be taken to the local authority rather than to Parliament.

Does the committee accept that recommendation?

Members indicated agreement.


Licensing Reform (PE1217)

The Convener:

PE1217, from Christopher Walker, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to revise its proposals to introduce new licensing regulations under the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Bill, in order to protect local tourism and businesses in rural areas from unnecessary regulation and charges. Do members have any views on how we should deal with the petition? The licensing regulations are now in situ, of course.

I believe the petitioner has notified the clerks that he believes that the petition has been fully considered. If that is that case, we should close the petition.

The Convener:

Okay.

The next petition on our agenda is PE1225. Jackie Baillie MSP has indicated that she would like to speak to the committee on the petition, but has had to leave for the time being. Do we agree to postpone consideration of the petition until she gets back?

Members indicated agreement.


Biological Data (PE1229)

The Convener:

PE1229, by Craig Macadam, calls on Parliament to urge the Government to establish integrated local and national structures for collecting, analysing and sharing biological data to inform decision-making processes to benefit biodiversity. Do members have any comments?

Nigel Don:

Both we and the petitioner have to recognise that, although there is an important issue lurking behind the petition, given current budgets and the financial circumstances in which we live, there is unlikely to be a significant amount of money to add to what we do in this regard, however important it might be.

The petitioner is right to say that what he suggests is not just about efficiency and is above monetary value. At the end of the day, however, things are only done if they can be paid for—unless we can encourage people to do things voluntarily, which is the important point that I would take from the petition. Those who are concerned about the environment and have the ability to collect the data and use it should be encouraged to do so. Encouraging our society to get on with doing useful things is an aspect that we sometimes miss.

Robin Harper:

It is extraordinarily important that we keep up pressure on the matter. It took a long time for the biodiversity plans to be completed, but that was not the signal for people to sit back and say, "Right, we've got our biodiversity action plan, we can stop there." We need to know the data with which the petition is concerned.

Nigel Don is right to say that there is not a lot of money around and that volunteers are important—lots of organisations already use a tremendous amount of voluntary manpower to gather data. However, it is important that local authorities be kept up to the mark in recognising their responsibility to keep up-to-date records of the data that can be gathered, so that they can take appropriate action in terms of planning, building and so on. I would therefore like the petition to be kept open.

Do we agree to keep the petition open and to look into the issues that members have raised, and the issues that were raised when the petition was discussed previously?

Members indicated agreement.


HM Prison Kilmarnock Contract (Independent Review) (PE1241)

The Convener:

PE1241, by William Buntain, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Government to conduct an impartial and independent review of its 25-year contract with Kilmarnock Prison Services Ltd on the design, construction, financing and managing of HM Prison Kilmarnock.

I am conscious that this has been a long shift for the committee, but Willie Coffey, the petitioner's local MSP, and Margaret Mitchell would like to speak to the petition.

Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP):

Thank you, convener. I note from the responses that neither the Scottish Prison Service nor Serco support the call for an independent review. Both state that there are enough provisions in the contractual arrangements to allow negotiations to take place. That is encouraging to an extent, but further progress would be achieved if, in the process of negotiations to resolve some of the issues that have been outstanding for a number of years, there was engagement and dialogue with the prison officers at Kilmarnock themselves. There might be merit in the petition coming back to the committee at a later date as a check and balance to ensure that good progress is being made.

Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con):

There were five submissions in response to the committee's call for evidence. As Willie Coffey said, two of the bodies were against an impartial, independent review, but two others were in favour—the Prison Service Union and the Prison Officers Association Scotland. Audit Scotland was at best neutral.

I will quickly go over some of the points that still support the case for an impartial and independent review. The Scottish Prison Service states that there is no conflict of interest because it does not raise revenue. It does, however, get money from administering the penalty points system, so I contend that there is a conflict of interest that has not been addressed.

The SPS says that the disciplinary process is a matter for the employer, but if there is a breach, the SPS controller can intervene and remove the custody officer's licence, which means that they cannot work, and there is no right of appeal. That is a big issue for those who work in Kilmarnock prison.

On training requirements, again, the SPS says that standards of training are entirely a matter for the contractor, but the SPS has not taken up requests to make them a little less arduous. The standards are still higher than those that pertain in the rest of the Scottish Prison Service.

On safety issues, it is clear from the PSU's submission that the SPS is still slow to respond to, for example, the need for physical security measures. In those circumstances, there is an issue about the safety of both prisoners and officers. Audit Scotland failed to address the issue at all.

We also have the issue of the £2.5 million that has been raised from the penalty points system. No one knows where that money has gone. If it goes to the SPS, there is clearly a conflict of interest. I do not think that there is any doubt about that. Again, Audit Scotland refused to take a hands-on approach or any ownership of that, which raises a question: if Audit Scotland is not prepared to look into the issue, who is? As the SPS is an arm of the Scottish Government, are ministers prepared to look into that a little further?

As for Serco, it maintains that contractual changes in the early years are often minimal, but the contract is now in its 10th year. A reasonable person would not consider that to be the early years of the contract. Serco says that the contract provides for dispute resolution to be used to address points of argument or dispute, but penalty points are still being imposed for things such as finding mobile phones, so the diligence of officers at Kilmarnock is being penalised rather than rewarded. If an officer in the SPS system finds a mobile phone, they get a commendation, so there are clear differences.

On physical training, the real issue is the high number of officers at Kilmarnock who have to be trained rather than the profile of those who are trained—the over-50s, for example. I should point out that for every person who requires training up to riot 3 status—and that is all officers in Kilmarnock prison—the SPS gets a sum of money. I believe that the sum is £250. The SPS gets £24,000 per annum from maintaining much higher levels of training than exist elsewhere in the prison service.

Finally, it appears that PAVA spray is not available to officers in Kilmarnock because under the Firearms Act 1968 it can be used only by Crown servants, which those officers are not deemed to be. Although Mike Ewart says in a letter dated 27 July 2009 that private sector partners should give "equal priority" to health and safety issues, that is clearly not the case in this instance.

I contend that, as many of these issues are still live, there should be an independent review.

There is not much disagreement at our end of the table that issues still have to be pursued, so we will not be looking to close the petition.

John Wilson:

As the petition was submitted before the opening of Addiewell prison, it would be useful to find out whether the contract that the SPS negotiated for the operation of that prison is exactly the same as the contract for HMP Kilmarnock or whether any amendments or changes have been made.

Margaret Mitchell is also right to highlight the rights of prison officers at Kilmarnock and the fact that, if their licence is taken away without appeal, they could also lose their livelihood. We have to maintain the employment rights of those workers and ensure that they are not being dealt with unfairly. As a result, we must seek to build in guarantees and find out why the SPS is taking this action.

The Convener:

As we have still not received full responses to certain issues that arose when we previously discussed this petition, I suggest that we follow those up and take on board the comments made by Margaret Mitchell and the constituency member, Mr Coffey.

Do members have any final comments?

Margaret Mitchell:

John Wilson is right to mention Addiewell because, as I have been led to believe and as the petitioner's submission makes clear, certain issues are beginning to emerge at that prison. This is a very much a live issue and, as I say, an independent and impartial review would go a long way towards resolving it.

We will continue our consideration of the petition and pursue the matters that have been highlighted. I thank the members who have come along to speak in support of it.


Schools (Health Promotion and Nutrition) (Scotland) Act 2007 (PE1244)

The Convener:

PE1244 by Donna Mathieson on behalf of Aberlady primary school parent council calls on the Parliament to urge the Government to revise the regulations and accompanying guidance under the Schools (Health Promotion and Nutrition) (Scotland) Act 2007 to allow schools to provide full fat milk where the child and the parents have indicated that that is their wish.

In their responses, the Government and NHS Health Scotland have said that they would not support any proposal to revise the regulations and guidance and have fully answered the eight points raised in the petition. Under the regulations, parents are allowed to send their children to school with full fat milk if they so wish. On those grounds, I recommend that we close the petition.

Members indicated agreement.


Clostridium Difficile (Public Inquiry) (PE1225)

The Convener:

We now return to PE1225 by Michelle Stewart. The petition has already been discussed by the committee, and I hope that our contribution has helped to progress the very difficult issue of tackling clostridium difficile not just at the Vale of Leven hospital but across the national health service in Scotland.

As I say, the committee has already discussed the petition in great detail. However, Jackie Baillie, who is the member of the constituency in which the hospital most dramatically affected is located, might wish to add some brief comments.

Jackie Baillie:

Thank you very much. I apologise for not returning in time for the petition's slot, but I was involved in evidence taking at the Finance Committee.

You are right that there are two issues in the petition. The first is the public inquiry. The families would want me to thank the committee for its efforts and support in securing the public inquiry, which was valuable. The second issue is the funding of all relevant individuals, groups and organisations to allow them to be involved and to participate fully in that inquiry. The latter point remains to be addressed. At a previous meeting, a committee member said:

"We should check that the appropriate people are funded. It would be nice to know the terms under which that is done before we close the petition".—[Official Report, Public Petitions Committee, 5 May 2009; c 1771.]

Those were the wise words of Nigel Don. He was right then and he is right now. That matter has not been resolved, so I would be grateful if the committee would keep the petition open.

The Convener:

You know that you have arrived in politics when the opposition is always quoting your name. There are issues that we still wish to pursue, so I do not wish to close the petition at this stage. We might want to postpone that until we get the details that we want.

We need to get the inquiry's terms of reference, too. That would be helpful.

I hope that that is satisfactory to the petitioners. I know that they have been in contact with Jackie Baillie over the past few months. Is that approach agreed?

Members indicated agreement.

I never thought that I would say this, Jackie, but go back and enjoy the Finance Committee.


Voluntary Sector Mental Health Services (Funding Framework) (PE1258)

The Convener:

The final petition for consideration today is PE1258, by John Dow, on behalf of TODAY—Together Overcoming Discrimination Against You and Me—which calls on the Parliament to urge the Government to introduce a fairer funding framework for all local, regional and national charities and organisations that support individuals with mental health issues and new guidance on the best value and procurement of such support services. We know that there are other petitions on similar subjects. How do members wish to deal with the petition? I certainly would not want to close the petition at this stage. Should we continue it, or refer it to another committee?

The petition raises a big enough issue for us to refer it on.

The clerk, in his wisdom, has indicated that the Local Government and Communities Committee will look at the broader issues raised by the petition at its meeting tomorrow.

We have incorporated the petition into a Local Government and Communities Committee inquiry. We have invited a number of witnesses along to speak on voluntary sector funding.

The clerk, in his further wisdom, is about to make another suggestion.

Fergus Cochrane:

Does John Wilson know what stage the Local Government and Communities Committee's inquiry has reached and whether it would be appropriate to refer the petition to it now? What precisely is the Local Government and Communities Committee doing tomorrow and is tomorrow the last evidence session in the inquiry?

I need to refer you to the clerk to the Local Government and Communities Committee. I do not have the paperwork with me, so I cannot give you a definitive answer.

It may well be too late to refer the petition on, so we should continue it in this committee and explore a couple of issues relating to the concordat and voluntary sector funding. Is that agreed?

Members indicated agreement.