Public Petitions Committee

Meeting date: Friday, March 1, 2013

Official Report 507KB pdf

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New Petitions

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Young People's Hospital Wards (PE1471)

The first item of business is consideration of new petitions, of which there are three. The first is PE1471, by Rachael McCully MYSP, on behalf of the Scottish Youth Parliament, on young people’s hospital wards. Members have a note from the clerk, a Scottish Parliament information centre briefing and the petition.

I invite Rachael McCully to make a short presentation of about five minutes to provide the context for the petition, after which I will ask some questions. My colleagues can then ask a few questions, after which I will throw the discussion open to members of the Scottish Youth Parliament, who can ask questions using the roving mike.

I am the MSYP for East Kilbride. I am calling for hospitals in Scotland to have specific young people’s wards or rooms for adolescents, and to ensure that staff receive adequate training to support young people’s mental and emotional needs.

Being in hospital can be a struggle for anyone—particularly for young people, who can find it a daunting and frightening experience, especially if they are in a mixed-age ward where the next-youngest person is more than 30 years older than them. At 16 we are not children, but much of the health service does not view us as adults, which sends a conflicting and confusing message to this age group.

I therefore seek to petition the national health service to provide this age group with staff, resources and rooms that meet our needs, with better specialist services for 16 to 24-year-olds, and with staff who are trained to deal with the mental health as well as the physical needs of that group. I would like the health service to ensure that all young people are consulted and informed about their diagnosis and treatment and are able to play a major role in the decisions that affect them.

I seek to ensure that, in line with article 24 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, young people receive the best possible care and that, in line with article 12, every child and young person has the right to express his or her views freely about everything that affects him or her. Hospitals should provide rooms within wards that are set aside for this age group, so that young people are placed together even if they are on a mixed-age ward. Finally, there should be recreation areas that are decorated with things such as games consoles, television and the internet as well books and so on. Provision of those services would aid patients’ recovery and therefore shorten their time in hospital.

This is not a new request. This age group is the subject of a constant battle between professionals about where they should be placed and cared for when receiving hospital treatment.

“Adolescents have distinctive and different needs from both child and adult patients.”

That is from a 1993 Scottish Office publication, “At Home in Hospital”. Russell Viner, a leading consultant in adolescent medicine at the University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, has called for all

“staff working with adolescents to have a core of skills, which transcend and are in addition to their specialist training”.

He has been doing constant research and consultation, and has proved that enough teenagers are treated as in-patients each year for an average district general hospital to support a specialist teenage ward of 12 to 15 beds. The report found that there were 17 patient bed days per 10,000 youngsters aged 12, rising to 24.6 days per 10,000 19-year-olds. Whereas more boys than girls occupied hospital beds at the age of 12, by the age of 17, more teenage girls than boys were in-patients. The number of beds that were taken up for day cases almost doubled from 2.32 per 10,000 people aged 12 to 4.31 per 10,000 by the age of 19.

A survey that was carried out by the Royal College of Nursing showed that

“the lack of young people’s facilities left staff feeling unsupported and uninformed about how best to support young people.”

Sue Burr, a Royal College of Nursing advisor on paediatric nursing, said that

“It is ridiculous that in this day and age we still do not have the services for teenagers.”

Even providing somewhere for young people to go during hospital visits, such as a recreational area where they can relax, helps to stimulate their brains, allows them to continue with their education and brings a sense of normality. Informing young people and including them at all levels of consultation and of the design process will improve the relationship between patients and staff. That would show respect for young people and help to identify proper treatment, which might otherwise not happen, with important information not being disclosed.

The supporting facts and statistics from various medical sources show that by focusing on the needs of this age group, we can speed up recovery, diagnose more quickly, shorten hospital stays and aid the recovery and welfare of individuals. Being provided with such care within hospitals would allow young people to recover better and would help them to know what is happening to them and with what medical treatment they have been provided. The result would be an all-round better experience at what can be a distressing and disruptive time for them. They would also have a better understanding and knowledge of how to take care of themselves once they are out of the care of the hospital. They would also know where and of whom they can ask questions, if they have any.

I will leave you with these aims, which have been cited by University College London:

“To appreciate and understand the advantages of implementing an adolescent friendly nursing model and ward routine to both young people and healthcare professionals”

and

“Professionals communicating directly with young people, listening to them and attempting to see hospitalisation through their eyes.”

I thank you for your time and for listening. I hope that you will consider our petition.

Thank you very much for that presentation, which I think has helped the committee greatly. We also have a current petition from Lynsey Pattie about mental health services, which will be debated at our next meeting on Tuesday 5 March, in respect of which the committee has raised the subject of mental health services for young people, which ties in extremely well with your petition.

I have a couple of questions to ask before I throw the questions open to my colleagues. Do you have evidence from other European countries on how hospitals deal with young people?

There are young people’s services in Britain. At University College London, there are facilities above the paediatric ward for people aged up to 19 or 20. There are also Teenage Cancer Trust wards throughout Britain. Those facilities have had a great impact on young people’s lives. They have been adopted from places such as Australia and the United States, where there are similar services. It has been proved that having such services helps young people to disclose more information and allows them to be diagnosed and treated quicker.

After a certain age, young people are put into adult wards, which means that they miss out on a lot of school. The patients in paediatric wards still get schooling. Young people’s wards mean that people can still be educated, which is not possible in adult wards. Examples in other places around the world show that such services work much better compared with young people being put into children’s or adult wards.

10:15

Have you picked up a lot of dissatisfaction among young people who are in wards that have adults in them?

We had a consultation involving different people who had experiences of being on a young persons ward, on a children’s ward and on an adult ward. Basically, when young people are on a children’s ward, they might be stuck next to crying babies. The young people often feel ignored because information is given not directly to them but to their parents. The young people might be 15 years old, but they are not being involved in their care.

In an adult ward, young people may also feel ignored. Often, young people feel obliged to wait until the older patients are seen, because they are not seen to be as important. For example, older patients might need more care in getting out of bed, whereas young people might be able to get in and out of bed but are still really unwell and are being put to the back of the queue a lot of the time.

Good morning. Rachael, I have a wee bit of robust questioning for you, although your presentation was very good. Given that young people represent only 4 per cent of all hospital admissions and we are trying to build a cohesive society, is the petition being driven by healthcare issues or by social care issues?

The petition comes from both those issues. It has been shown that, mentally and physically, young people recover from treatment quicker when they are on a young persons ward. Often, young people persistently need to go back to a doctor or hospital because they have not been diagnosed straight away due to not having a good relationship with the hospital staff, who often do not know how to deal with young people. That was proved through—

Do you feel that young people are treated differently from other sections of society?

Yes. When you are on a ward—

Where is the evidence for that?

I do not have the evidence here with me, but it has been shown through a Royal College of Nursing consultation that was done with nurses and with young people that nurses do not know how to deal with young people adequately. Mentally, the nurses were unsure how to speak to the young people, so they were standoffish and ended up speaking to the parents, who might not have information on how the young person is feeling. Similarly, young people may feel that they do not know how to speak to a healthcare professional because they can feel that they are either being undermined or just not being listened to.

Perhaps that is a reflection of what happens generally in society, although there is an argument that there would be a benefit to society from mixing age groups rather than differentiating between them.

When there is a diagnosis by a clinician, how much discussion takes place about the overall expectation in relation to the young person’s care in hospital?

I am sorry; I am not entirely sure.

Okay. I have one last question. On staff training, do staff in hospitals treat young people differently from how they treat other people?

Yes. That is particularly true in the accident and emergency department or when a young person is in hospital. Obviously, as a young person, you mix with lots of people at school all the time, whereas in hospital everyone is very segregated. Usually, arguments take place when young people try to have visitors in during the day. Even if the visitors are their parents, they may not be allowed in. That is one issue.

When young people come into an A and E department, the staff automatically think that they will cause trouble. If the young person comes in with five or six friends—obviously, your friends are worried about you—the staff will end up asking the friends to leave even if they are not doing anything wrong. However, another family member might come in with five or six friends, but they will not be asked to leave because they are older.

Thank you very much, Rachel. I welcome you and other members of the Scottish Youth Parliament to the committee.

Your evidence included a personal communication from the Scottish Government which advised that NHS Scotland is committed to moving the upper age limit for its children’s hospital services from the 13th to the 16th birthday, with flexibility for making it 18 years. However, that change will not be fully in place until the new hospitals in Edinburgh and Glasgow are completed. What is your view on that?

I have looked at that. Hospitals that provides children’s services normally put young people—depending on their mentality—in the children’s ward until age 16. However, they cannot always do that, which is understandable, and they normally prioritise children who are under the age of 13. That leaves young people who are between the ages of 13 and 19 lingering. Putting a 14-year-old on an adult ward could become a child-protection issue.

It is not fair that young people should be asked to wait. There should be a separate ward—you are no longer a child at the age of 16 and you do not want to be stuck next to babies and kids, and neither do you want to be stuck on a ward with a person who is 95 years old because you are left feeling responsible for that person. For example, if that 95-year-old person asks you to get something for them, you might—even though you are sick—be constantly getting up and down to help them. When they are building hospitals, they need to consider putting in place a young person’s ward.

I am not sure whether you have researched the situation in A and E, but I want to share a personal experience. I am a mother of three bairns, two of whom are teenagers. When my 13-year-old was referred to A and E for an X-ray, they were sent to an adult ward because they could not be seen at the Yorkhill hospital at that time. There had been a pub brawl or a street fight, so A and E was in pandemonium. That opened my eyes up to the situation, and it was horrifying for my 13-year-old to be there, even though it was for medical reasons.

Yorkhill hospital does not receive any young people over the age of 13 unless it is for specialist care. Any person over the age of 13 who goes to A and E there is turned away. That is terrible for a child, who then must go somewhere else, which might be like the situation you have described.

That most certainly has been my experience. I would have been even more horrified if my child had had to remain in the Western infirmary. We were only there for an X-ray, but a few years later we still speak about how horrifying that experience was for my young child.

Yes—it can be a frightening experience. As I said, when they put a child or a young person on a children’s ward they think about their mentality. However, someone at the age of 13 can have a young mentality and being put on an adult ward can be very frightening. Normally, you are only allowed one parent or person with you. As you said, there could have been a pub fight and lots of people could be in A and E covered in blood. That is not right—it is not a youth-friendly environment at all.

The experience was fairly horrific. It was scary enough for me as an adult, and far more so for the young child I had with me. Obviously, we were turned away from Yorkhill hospital and the nearest hospital was the Western infirmary. Thank you for allowing me to share that experience.

A young person whom I consulted had the same experience. He broke his arm and had to have an operation. He was turned away from Yorkhill hospital. He was sent—at the age of 14—to an adult ward. I do not understand that.

I will take a couple more questions from MSPs before I throw the floor open to members of the Scottish Youth Parliament.

Thank you for your detailed presentation, Rachel. You have obviously done a lot of research.

Anne McTaggart covered part of what I was intending to ask. However, I note that in the “Better Health, Better Care: Hospital services for children and young people” report, NHS boards were to be asked to

“Review the pattern and volume of adolescent admissions to identify opportunities for creating adolescent facilities.”

Clearly, there is a will to provide specific facilities for adolescents. However, I was surprised to note in our briefing for today’s meeting that the Scottish Government does not have information on how many adolescent facilities have been created in Scotland.

You mentioned facilities in London, Australia and the States. Do you have any examples of good practice in Scotland?

In Scotland there is a teenage cancer ward in the Beatson hospital in Glasgow. It is part of a successful project that runs across Britain. There will be another two in Scotland. There is a ward in Yorkhill, but that is only for patients up to the age of 16. After reaching 16, patients are transferred to the Beatson.

As of this summer, there will be a ward in Edinburgh that will host 12 to 14 beds and it will be a very similar facility to that in the Beatson. There is a volume—thankfully it is a low volume—of young people with cancer and when they go on to those wards they are treated so much better. They are not woken up extremely early and they are allowed to lie in. Their treatments are scheduled around the young person’s life, so they can still go to school and go out. The wards have recreational areas where patients can rest and they can have their family and friends in there at any time. The visiting times are very flexible. The young person feels a lot more relaxed there and feels like things are much better.

The NHS is also providing a youth co-ordinator to help young persons to get involved and to talk about the situation, because cancer is a very difficult thing to go through. After receiving a diagnosis, a young person needs someone to talk to. It is good to have someone to speak to who is on their level and is not a healthcare professional, because they could worry about other aspects of life, not just the cancer diagnosis.

That facility is very much sought after, and the wards are now cropping up all over. We are going to have another two in Scotland—they are planning one in Aberdeen, as well.

Can you clarify what you are asking for? Are you asking for an adolescent ward in every hospital in Scotland?

I would not expect every hospital to host one, because not every hospital has a children’s ward, but the bigger hospitals should. The new hospital that is being built in Glasgow is going to be a major, big hospital—they are moving the children’s hospital there—so I do not know why they cannot put an adolescent ward into the plans.

They could have adolescent wards in the major hospitals in places such as Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen, then roll them out to other places later—even if they are just specific rooms.

I represent a constituency that is not a city constituency. What about young people there? What would you be looking for for them, with regard to treatment?

If there are not wards, a hospital could set aside rooms in which there could be two beds to a room. Although the Beatson has a specific ward, it found that it could not have just young people in a full ward, because that was not in the plans when the hospital was originally built. It has rooms for young people in which there are two beds to a room. It would be really good if hospitals had that.

The Beatson is obviously a specialist hospital that deals with cancer. One can see the logic in having a special ward for young people who suffer from cancer. Similarly, for a long time there has been an issue about trying to establish adolescent wards in mental health hospitals, particularly for young people who have had their first episode of severe mental illness.

You are arguing for significant investment by the NHS in special adolescent wards and rooms, but it could be argued that other people have special cases. Hospital is very frightening for many people. For example, an old person who lives alone at home could feel intimidated in hospital. It is a very difficult experience for them, too, so why should young people get special treatment?

I am not asking for special treatment; I am just asking for what young people deserve. It has been proven that a young person’s body and mind are completely different from those of a child or an adult. I said that going into hospital can be a frightening experience for anybody—not just for a young person.

10:30

When you go into hospital, the majority of people are elderly, so young people are in a minority group already. When young people enter hospital, there could be other young people there, but they could be spread out. If the young people were put together, it could make it a lot easier. There are specialist wards for children and then there are adult wards, but between certain ages we are classified as young people, so we are a distinct group. I am not asking for any special treatment; I am asking for consideration for a group that is identified as being different from children and from adults.

How do you define “adolescent”? Where do you draw the line? We have talked about the HSCYP report, which suggests that the age limit for children’s services should be raised from 13 to 16. What age group are we talking about? Are there age criteria or other criteria that we should consider in order to define “adolescents” or “young people” with regard to treatment?

You mentioned the age limit for children’s services going up to 16. Young people should be defined as being between the ages of 16 to 25 or, if not, as being between the ages of 16 to 21 at least. Most places in the world have young people’s wards that go up to the ages of 25 or 21. In London specifically, within Britain, young people’s wards go up to the age of 21. Young people’s wards should be for those between the ages of 16 to 25, or if not, 16 to 21, because you are still developing as a young adult. You are not fully adult yet and the staff do not listen to you when you are a young person.

Could that not be dealt with just by better training?

It is not just about better training. A young person on a hospital ward can be there all day and some wards only let you see people for an hour. If there is some sort of incident on the ward, you do not see anybody for a day or two at a time. It is not good for your mental health if you are stuck in a specific room with all these elderly patients and you are not getting to speak to anybody. You can use technology, but it is not the same.

I start by saying that, in the six years that I have been a member of the Scottish Parliament, no constituent has raised this matter with me.

Scottish Government policy is to move to new hospital builds with single-room accommodation. The new hospitals that we are talking about—in Glasgow, Dumfries and Galloway and elsewhere—will be single-room accommodation hospitals, which Scottish Conservatives support. Are you arguing against the single-room accommodation policy for young people?

That is not something that I have looked into, so I cannot fully answer that question—I apologise.

In the event that we build new hospitals with single-room accommodation, where young people would be not in a mixed ward with other people but in their own single-room accommodation, would you be opposed to that?

I am not entirely opposed to it, but that situation will not be the case in every single hospital.

Yes, it will be.

That is not guaranteed.

But it is. In the hospitals that are being built, there will be single-room accommodation. I am trying to understand whether you think that the Scottish Government is wrong to be building single-room accommodation hospitals. Do you think that there should still be wards as opposed to single-room accommodation for the group that you represent?

There should still be wards as well.

So you would deny young people the same opportunity as other people to have single-room accommodation.

I am not saying that.

I think that you are.

The point was made that the Beatson specialises in dealing with cancer—a particular discipline. Most hospitals do not have wards based on age groups; they have them based on clinical disciplines. Are you suggesting that, for each clinical discipline, there should be a separate ward for adolescents?

That is not entirely true. When you are placed on a ward, it is usually dependent on what is wrong with you, but you could be placed in an orthopaedic ward when you have something wrong with your heart. You are not always placed on the right ward because you cannot always be held—

I want to stick to my question: are you suggesting that there should be separate, adolescent provision within each clinical discipline for which there is ward provision?

No, I am saying that there should be separate provision within the hospital, because if you are in a children’s—

So you are saying that you want separate provision for adolescents for all mixed clinical disciplines.

No. I want there to be a ward within the hospital—

A ward for what?

For young people.

Irrespective of the condition for which they are in the hospital.

Yes.

Given that, where acute conditions are concerned, wards often have a particular specialisation within them, would that not put patients at risk?

In hospitals, patients are not always put in specialist wards.

But what would happen if someone had an acute condition and required acute specialist care?

As you said, they would be put in a single room.

No, but we are talking about the provision that currently exists.

You are chopping and changing your mind.

What would the policy cost?

I am unsure of that.

There is pressure on staffing resources in the NHS. The minute the creation of an additional ward facility is considered, it is necessary to consider additional staffing resource. What would that cost?

There is more cost involved in young people continually returning to hospital because they are not diagnosed correctly the first time, because they do not have a proper relationship with the staff.

Can you answer my question? What would it cost to make available such additional ward provision and to staff it?

I am unsure.

You are not sure. Thank you.

I now invite questions from members of the Youth Parliament. I will start with the chair of the Youth Parliament, Grant Costello.

I will follow up on some of the issues that members of the committee have raised.

Chic Brodie mentioned that only 4 per cent of hospital admissions involve young people, but the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament are trying to create a cohesive society, and the most important aspect of creating a cohesive society is ensuring that people feel equal and that they feel safe. One of the most important aspects of the petition is that young people do not necessarily feel safe or that they are listened to when they are in a ward of adults. It is quite important that young people have an environment in which they feel comfortable and in which they feel okay.

As far as significant investment and cost are concerned, I think that the recent revelations down in England surrounding the Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust mean that we have an opportunity. The NHS needs to be reviewed, and the petition’s proposal needs to be considered. Young people play a massive role in society. The Parliament is meant to build a future for those young people. The committee asks for evidence of why what we are asking for is needed. We are the evidence: an 85,000-strong electorate elected us as the evidence to bring to you. In that sense, I do not think that the committee needs to worry about evidence.

When it comes to cost, there is nothing more important than a young person’s future. Although, as Jackson Carlaw pointed out, we have our financial problems, some notice needs to be paid to young people. There needs to be an understanding that young people must be put first. That is important to bear in mind when hospitals with single rooms are being built, but young people cannot just be locked in a room. They need to have an environment in which they can talk to people, have fun and enjoy themselves. Young people who are sick do not have the plague. They cannot just be locked away. There needs to be an understanding of that.

Thank you for that.

I invite questions. The intention is that they will be for Rachael McCully, but they can go wider than that. I ask those who wish to speak to raise their hands. I will take two questions at a time.

I can see two hands in the back row. Please do not speak until you have the mike. Please identify yourselves. I would appreciate it if, instead of giving a speech, you ask one-point questions, so that we can fit in as many questions as possible.

I am the MSYP for the Scottish Epilepsy Initiative.

I have a comment rather than a question. I would like to highlight the issue of training for NHS staff. My experience of our NHS has been horrific. Waiting times are ridiculously long. Despite the fact that I have had a diagnosis of epilepsy twice, I have had no proper treatment that has been successful for the past three years. When I go into hospital, I am spoken down to. As young people, we are a forgotten generation. We are pushed to the side and are treated as not important.

Issues with mental health treatment are definitely to the forefront. I have been on a waiting list for cognitive behavioural therapy for the past year and a half to two years. As young people, we are forgotten. As Grant Costello said, we are the future. I am contributing to society by going to university and—I hope—getting a job, and yet my health issues are not a concern to society.

I do not think that that is right. Training is definitely a serious issue that needs to be considered. If there cannot be specific wards for young people, extra training for staff on how to deal with young people should definitely be at the forefront. At the moment, we are totally forgotten about. That is an issue for me and I think that it should be considered.

Thank you for that point. If anyone is available at 10 o’clock on Tuesday morning, the Public Petitions Committee will discuss that issue during consideration of another petition. If you cannot attend, you will be able to pick up the points through the Official Report. The meeting will also be webcast. I encourage the MSYPs to follow developments with that petition.

I am an MSYP for North-East Fife. I was speaking to some of my constituents who did not feel that we could justify the huge investment and cost for such a small percentage of people. I know that we should be doing something about the issue, but I am not sure that such a big investment is necessary. Could a cheaper alternative be presented to us?

I am an MSYP for Edinburgh Northern and Leith. I am pretty sure that we have hospitals for old people such as the Royal Victoria in Edinburgh, so surely it is only right that we should have specific areas for young people when we have different needs compared with those of the general population.

I am an MSYP for Greenock and Inverclyde. In response to Jackson Carlaw’s point, it is important that young people who have particularly acute illnesses are treated in specialist wards. Rachael, how would you respond to that?

Rachael, any time you feel the need to comment, just let me know. I am trying to bring in as many of your colleagues as possible.

I am an MSYP for Coatbridge and Chryston. I would like to respond to a point raised by Jackson Carlaw. It does not matter whether we are talking about single bedrooms or wards; the Scottish Youth Parliament and Rachael McCully are saying that the young people of Scotland should get the best of hospital treatment. Grant Costello made a good point when he said that, when those young people come out of hospital, what happened to them there will affect them for their rest of their lives mentally and physically. Regardless of whether we are talking about a single room or a ward, we want the treatment of young people to be the best that it can be.

Rachael McCully and Grant Costello mentioned child protection issues and, as a constituency member for Glasgow Southside, I have had constituents describe to me horrific experiences that they have had in the Glasgow royal infirmary when they have been put beside extremely violent patients. I am talking about people hitting staff and having to be sectioned off. That is a horrific experience. Would adolescent wards help to solve some of the major child protection issues that we see in hospitals today?

Thank you for all your comments and points.

I will start with Kyle Thornton’s question. Yes, in a ward for adolescents, young people would be more likely to relate to one another on a better level. If there is good communication between young people and staff, patients will be less likely to hit out or be violent. Also, an elderly patient who has dementia could also be violent and hitting out. They are obviously not able to control that and a young person could be frightened by that, at night for example, and they could react again. As far as child protection issues go, it is just not right to put a 14-year-old into a ward with someone who is 70.

I just want to touch on the point that Sian Hughes made about epilepsy. In Scotland we have a problem with the neurological side of things, because our brains are still developing but after the age of 14 a patient is often put with an adult neurologist. It has been shown that that is causing real problems, particularly for young people in Scotland who are waiting for a ridiculous amount of time to be diagnosed.

I have heard about someone who had to wait for two years to be diagnosed. They were not properly diagnosed and their seizures were not properly under control until they were admitted to the adolescent hospital at University College London, where they were properly diagnosed and put on medication. That is a ridiculous situation. Better work needs to be done on young people with epilepsy.

10:45

In response to the question of money, I appreciate that cuts are being made everywhere. However, this approach would save money. As I have said, a lot of money is spent on young people continually going back to hospital because they did not get the right diagnosis at first, because they do not communicate properly with staff and because the staff do not communicate properly with them.

I have to apologise, Rachel—we are running a bit short of time—but I thank you for your presentation and responding to the members’ questions. You did extremely well in dealing with the kind of tough questions that we ask all witnesses. I also thank all members of the Scottish Youth Parliament for their comments and questions. Please bear in mind that we will be inviting you to ask questions and make points about the next set of petitions.

The final stage is for the committee to decide what the next step should be. I think that we should continue to investigate the issues raised in the petition and it would seem sensible to ask the views of the Scottish Government, health boards the length and breadth of Scotland and Action for Sick Children, which obviously has expertise in this area. Are committee members agreed or does anyone wish to make an additional point?

I think that if we write to the health boards we will simply get a standard administrative reply. I would therefore like to go beyond that and ask the Royal College of Nursing and medical practitioners about the training that they have had in engaging with young people. What seems to be a spillover from society is simply unacceptable in that environment, so I think that we should write to the RCN and—

The British Medical Association?

Indeed.

I think that we have discussed this issue at previous meetings but, given the length that it takes health boards to reply, would it be possible to set a time limit?

If you will recall, the committee asked me to pursue the issue with the conveners group. It is on the agenda for its next meeting, which is taking place this month, and I will ask all other committees to check whether they are having the same problem and whether we can make it clear that we are the democratically elected Parliament and that health boards must respond to our queries. There is action outstanding on this issue, and I will keep the committee updated with any developments. I also note that we set deadlines when we send out our letters.

In addition to writing to the health boards, we should also ask NHS Education for Scotland about its approach to young people’s treatment and how staff training is being improved.

Are members happy with the course of action that has been suggested?

Members indicated agreement.

I say to Rachael McCully that even though she has done her bit she should feel free to stay and listen to the other petitions.

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Scottish Living Wage (Recognition Scheme) (PE1467)

The second new petition is PE1467 by Andrew McGowan, on behalf of the Scottish Youth Parliament, on a Scottish living wage recognition scheme. Members will have received a note from the clerk and the Scottish Parliament information centre briefing.

I invite Andrew McGowan to make a short presentation of around five minutes. As with the previous petition, I and my colleagues will ask a few questions after the presentation and then I will give members of the Scottish Youth Parliament the opportunity to ask questions of their own.

Over the past year, the Scottish Government and local authorities have worked together on implementing in the public sector a Scottish living wage, which has benefited thousands of low-paid workers. The Scottish Government and Parliament have a duty to every low-paid worker in Scotland, regardless of whether they are employed by the public or private sector. It is estimated that around 18 per cent of the Scottish labour market—or 390,000 workers—are being paid less than the Scottish living wage. Those workers might not be directly employed by the Government, but that does not mean that it does not have an obligation to tackle actively the problems of in-work poverty.

Bar staff like me, waiters and waitresses, and those in retail and other salespeople are most likely to be paid less than the living wage. Since the age of 18, I have worked as a barman and now have nearly two years’ experience. I was being paid £5.50 an hour, which is above the current UK national minimum wage rate for my age, but the fact is that I was being discriminated against because of my age. Four new starts with no previous bar experience were employed at £6.19 an hour; despite having more experience than them and despite the fact that I had to help them with the general operation of the till system or something as trivial as changing a keg, I was still being paid less than them. There is no excuse—that is wrong.

Everyone deserves to be paid equally and to be paid at least a Scottish living wage. Workers’ pay should be based on their experience, not their age, and it should reward skills and success. Everyone deserves to live rather than just survive.

Families, as well as young people, need that. The level of child poverty in Scotland has risen by 2 per cent since 2010. In tough economic times, the income of a two-child family in which both parents work full time on the national minimum wage would cover only 82 per cent of basic costs. On the other hand, a lone parent on the minimum wage plus relevant top-up benefits could cover 89 per cent of those costs.

In the so-called good times and bad times, working families are struggling to make ends meet. Pay freezes by both Government and private sector employers coupled with a period of inflation in the price of necessary goods and services have seen working families hit hardest with real-terms cuts to their limited incomes.

We should strive to tackle the blight of child and in-work poverty, and the fight should be fought on many levels. There is no doubt in my mind that making work pay to a level that allows families to live rather than just survive is an effective weapon, if not the most important weapon that we have.

You will no doubt agree that there is a strong case for a Scottish living wage. However, there is also strong demand from Scots for a recognition scheme. Our “Change the Picture” manifesto received 43,000 responses from young people, of whom 76 per cent agreed that the Scottish Government should set up a recognition scheme and 78 per cent believed that an equal minimum wage should be paid to all. In under a month, the petition secured around 2,000 signatures. That was made possible by the dedicated MSYPs who have championed the petition and who have been out in force in communities, advocating the need for a recognition scheme and collecting support and signatures.

The Scottish living wage recognition scheme that we propose today would see the Scottish Government actively encouraging businesses the length and breadth of Scotland to pay their employees a living wage. Membership of this scheme—unlike membership of the United Kingdom scheme—would be free to businesses and, once signed up, they would receive the official Kitemark. Those businesses could then advertise themselves as ethical employers and, in doing so, encourage their competitors to join the scheme.

Glasgow operates a similar employer recognition scheme that has attracted more than 150 businesses to date in the city alone. Our scheme would aim to create a marketplace where consumers and workers could ask whether an employer chose to pay the living wage and, if not, why not.

When implemented by employers, the living wage would make an instant difference to the lives of the 400,000 low-paid private sector workers and the two thirds of children who live in poverty but who come from a home where parents are working, enabling them to truly live and not just survive.

Thank you for your presentation. Currently, the living wage is set by a foundation in London. What is its approach to recognition of whether the living wage is paid? Is there any recognition scheme at all in Scotland for the living wage?

No, not nationally. That is why we propose a Scotland-wide scheme. As I mentioned, Glasgow provides a scheme that has attracted 150 businesses in the city alone. That shows that businesses want to get involved and want to pay a living wage for which they will be rewarded and recognised.

You mentioned that the bar trade is infamous for poor pay. Catering and cleaning also have a bad reputation. The workers in those sectors are predominantly women and younger people, and young women, in particular, are discriminated against. Do you agree with that analysis?

Completely. I speak from personal experience of working in a bar where I am the only male between the ages of 18 and 25—the other seven employees are young females. I completely agree that young women are hit hardest by low pay.

I sit on the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee. This week, we took evidence from Professor Joe Stiglitz, the Nobel prize winner, and he indicated the complications, particularly in the States, of the gap in incomes between those at the very top and those at the bottom. You have submitted a very dignified paper. I am surprised that you are not raging a lot more.

One of the saddest things to happen in the Parliament was the departure of John Park, who is a great advocate of the living wage. I am sure that the forthcoming procurement reform bill will embrace the notion that any local or national Government procurement must consider the payment of a living wage while we work to reduce the gap between those at the top and those at the bottom.

Having run businesses, I have to say that you might get employers who tell you that they are paying the living wage but who are not. You might find people getting an award who really do not deserve it. How do you propose to establish the verity of employers who say that they are paying a living wage?

The Scottish Government has the final say on whether to take the scheme forward. However, as with the UK scheme, if an employer wanted to join the scheme that we propose, they would have to sign a legally binding contract in which they would accept investigation to find out whether their employees are being paid a living wage at the current rate of £7.45 an hour.

What happens if they do not want to sign the contract?

They do not join the scheme.

First of all, the scheme has to be recognised by authorities that can apply whatever rules that you want.

I have a meeting with the Federation of Small Businesses in Scotland at which we will talk about how we could promote the scheme to small businesses, which are arguably the backbone of our economy. It is quite simple, and the scheme is completely voluntary. In Glasgow, 150 businesses feel that they should pay a living wage and are subject to checks to ensure that they are paying a living wage. They should not be able to advertise themselves as ethical employers if they are not being truthful or paying a living wage.

I am confused about how the scheme will work. You say that it will be voluntary. I have absolutely no disagreement with the intent—in fact, I support it—but I think that there will be inherent difficulties in applying a recognition scheme.

Thank you for your point.

Would it not be more sensible to legislate for a minimum wage that is equal to a living wage?

The power to do that is currently reserved to the Westminster Government. I am trying not to be party political here, but I do not feel that the Conservatives or the UK Government would seek to have a higher UK national minimum wage. I feel that the recognition scheme is something that Scotland can promote and encourage businesses to join, but Scotland does not currently have the powers to legally impose something on businesses.

Would it not be more sensible for the Scottish Parliament to acquire those powers?

That is up to the opinions—[Laughter.]

He never misses a trick.

Again, I am trying not to be party political. I would not like to get drawn into a battle.

That would sort out the problem, particularly with regard to the fact that there are different minimum wage rates and your feeling that young people are being discriminated against.

Putting my constitutional view to one side, I believe that the Scottish Government, the Scottish Parliament and the parties that are represented in Parliament have a duty now. This scheme is needed now and not after 2014. If there is a yes vote, by all means we can work towards a higher minimum wage. If there is a no vote, we should be prepared and have a scheme that we can promote and use to encourage businesses to pay a Scottish living wage to their employees.

The figure that sticks out to me is the 390,000 workers who would benefit. Also, two thirds of children in poverty come from a working house. Irrespective of whether we become independent or stay within the United Kingdom, we have a duty as a country to those people.

All that I am pointing out is that the relevant powers are elsewhere at the moment. I understand that the Scottish Government has made a public stance of paying a living wage to every one of its direct employees.

The NHS provides a living wage for every staff member, and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the Scottish Government are trying to encourage a living wage throughout the public sector. However, it is private sector employers that you have to persuade. There is a difference between persuasion and imposition through legislation. Your campaign is a good one but, as you say, it will be entirely voluntary.

11:00

It is always helpful to have Adam Ingram to demonstrate the dictatorship that he would like us all to live in. Yes, we could acquire the relevant powers and then colossally disappoint the nation by not implementing any of the promises that we make. I do not think that the powers themselves would guarantee the objective that the petitioner seeks.

That is a Conservative trick.

Oh dear, oh dear, Adam—think of all those college places that you have axed.

I am actually broadly sympathetic with the aims of the petition as Andrew McGowan has outlined them, so congratulations on that, but I would like to follow up on a couple of points. You say that, in Glasgow, a scheme is being operated with 150 businesses and that some kind of monitoring and checking is taking place. Who has responsibility for carrying out those checks? Is that being done by the council?

I am not sure about that.

Do you have any idea of what resource has been made available for the undertaking of that function?

We could look into that and let you know.

That would be interesting. Obviously, your primary objective is to have more people being paid the living wage. You say that the recognition scheme is potentially an access route to more people being paid it, but you would not want resource to be diverted to a recognition scheme per se—the petition is about more people getting the living wage.

You mentioned that you are going to have conversations with the Federation of Small Businesses. I presume that, if those conversations were reasonably successful and the federation initiated a programme within its organisation, a bit like Glasgow City Council has done, it would probably carry out its own monitoring of whether those who have enrolled are fulfilling the criteria. More broadly, if there was a national recognition scheme, do you thereby propose that resource should be committed nationally for the infrastructure, process and personnel that would be needed to police and manage the scheme? Since we are talking largely about the private sector, would it not be better for that to arise on a voluntary basis from within the private sector, which you are meeting and seeking to persuade?

Our proposal is that the Scottish Government should do that. The meeting with the Federation of Small Businesses is to get its support and its views and opinions to feed into our proposals.

Does that mean that taxpayers would underwrite the cost of a national recognition scheme?

The Scottish Youth Parliament has estimated that two administrators would be needed. The Government would have the final say on how the scheme should be carried out. We have made a proposal, but we cannot provide the fine details or estimate the payroll. That would be up to the Scottish Government and civil servants.

Given that we are looking to private sector employers to participate more actively in the living wage, why is it preferable to have the Scottish Government use taxpayer resources to run and manage a national recognition scheme than to have private sector representative organisations manage and administer such a scheme, which would not cost the public purse anything?

I feel that the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament have a duty and an obligation to every one of the 390,000 workers who are presently paid less than the Scottish living wage. They are the people who, arguably, elected you, Mr Carlaw. The Government and Parliament have an obligation and a duty to the people of Scotland to champion and promote the Scottish living wage and encourage employers.

I do not disagree, but is that not more likely to come from the representative organisations of the businesses that you are trying to persuade, rather than through what seems like diktat or bureaucratic intervention from Government?

Each to their own, I suppose. That is your opinion. I feel that it would be an all-Scotland and all-Government response to a problem in our society. For me, politics is about shaping the society that I want to live in. I do not want to live in a society where 390,000 people are paid below—

With respect, that is a separate argument. That is an argument for the living wage. We are talking about a recognition scheme.

Yes, and the recognition scheme would actively seek to eliminate the problems of in-work poverty. It would be Government policy and part of the Government’s agenda.

I do not disagree with that. I am just asking who should underwrite the cost of managing and administering the scheme. You think that it should be the taxpayer.

I think that it should be the Scottish Government.

The Scottish Government has no money; it gets money from the taxpayer. So you are saying that the money should come from the taxpayer.

Yes.

Now you know what it is like being on “Question Time”.

As we are a bit short of time, I ask my colleagues to ask just one brief question each, because I want to allow time for the Scottish Youth Parliament to intervene.

I will be brief. I agree with most, although not all, of what Andrew McGowan said. It is important that we act now rather than wait until 2014, because it is a hugely important issue. It concerns me even more that people on apprenticeships are being paid £2.65 an hour. That is just shocking.

Thank you for that. We do not need to hear a response every time, so I will move on.

I congratulate the Scottish Youth Parliament on setting up the one fair wage campaign, and I certainly welcome the proposal for a Scottish living wage recognition scheme. Such a scheme would certainly help to concentrate employers’ minds and encourage good practice with regard to paying the living wage.

Andrew, you mentioned that workers’ pay should be based on experience and not on age. I think that you said that you will meet the FSB next week—

We did not set a date, as things were too busy. We will set a date after the sitting.

Okay. When you meet the FSB, how will you respond to the point, which it will no doubt raise, that small firms are struggling as it is and that increasing wages to the living wage level of £7.45 an hour could break some small traders?

It is a valid point. I stress again that the scheme would be voluntary. It would not be imposed on employers. Employers who felt that they could not subscribe to such a scheme and commit themselves to paying the living wage at present would not have to do so. However, there are benefits. As I said at the end of my speech, when the living wage is implemented, it has an instant effect and people’s disposable income is increased. It is an economic truth that, when low-paid workers are given more money, they spend it in their communities, and arguably they spend it with small businesses. Small businesses benefit from that, and there is a great multiplier effect on employment in the community.

I have a comment on self-regulation. It was interesting to hear what Jackson Carlaw said, because clearly his Government has great experience of self-regulation, the Press Complaints Commission being one example—not.

What Government?

Now, now, colleagues. Can we concentrate on asking questions, please?

I just make an appeal. We can legislate indirectly. That is why we are to consider the procurement reform bill. We need to encourage as much effort as possible to be put into supporting what needs to be done on contractual conditions. I take Andrew McGowan’s point on the multiplier effect on society, notwithstanding some of the problems.

Thank you for that. I now throw it open for questions. I intend to take two at a time, and at the end of the questions I would like Andrew McGowan to do a brief summing-up before the committee decides what action to take next.

I would just like to make a statement. It is a wee bit of food for thought. I work as a salesperson and I get £4.10 an hour. Would any of you work for £4.10 an hour? Do you think that you would be able to survive and live your life on £4.10 an hour?

I have been there.

Thank you for that. Will people who want to ask questions raise their hands?

What is your stance on the fact that under-16s are not currently paid a national minimum wage? Would they be included in the campaign?

Sorry—will you introduce yourself and say where you are from?

I am an MSYP for Moray.

We have time for a few more questions. Perhaps people could stand up and introduce themselves for the record.

I am an MSYP for Edinburgh Northern and Leith.

I want to reframe Jackson Carlaw’s point about whether the Scottish Government and taxpayers should invest in tackling in-work poverty. I think that, yes, it is worth investing in tackling in-work poverty. The fact that families and people in communities cannot survive while working is at the root of the point that the petition is trying to make. Given the points that Andrew McGowan raised about the harm caused by that, it is absolutely worth it. That is why it is important that the committee takes the petition forward.

We have time for a few more questions. Please raise your hand if you wish to ask a question. I will take a question from the woman in the back row.

I am an MSYP for North Ayrshire, but I am also a modern apprentice with my local authority. I am the youngest of the eight people who are doing my course, so I am paid £2.65 an hour whereas, because the others are aged 19 and over, they get paid more than double what I do. Can someone justify why, when you are 19, you get double what you get when you are 18?

I will take another question from the person in the back row.

I am an MSYP for Moray. What is your opinion of the Westminster campaign to lower the bottom rate of tax? Many people feel that that would do more than bringing in a living wage.

Again, we still have time for a few more questions. If people want to ask a question, this is their big chance. Did I see a hand in the second-back row?

I am an MSYP for Stirling. As has been pointed out by many others, if young people were paid more, they would invest lots of that into their local communities. Everyone here knows lots of people who are drastically underpaid and who are struggling to survive on low pay, especially when that is combined with education. People under the age of 25 are not entitled to welfare benefits, which prop up low pay for other people. For people under the age of 25, their low wages are all that they have.

I can take two more questions before I ask Andrew McGowan to sum up.

On that previous point, the Government is looking at scrapping housing benefit for under-25s. If under-25s no longer have housing benefit and have to work for such a low rate of pay, that will make things 10 times worse. How do you justify that?

I can take one more question. Is there anyone who has not asked a question who would like to ask one? I will take a question from both people on the front row, since they are next to each other.

I am an MSYP for Dumfriesshire. The petition could help not only young people but a number of people in our society. In particular, it could reduce inequalities for gender as well as age. Also, the petition could help to improve employee relations at a time when many employees in the public and private sectors are demotivated.

I am an MSYP for Glasgow Kelvin. I would just like the Scottish National Party members of the committee to stop hiding behind the procurement reform bill, which has been put forward as a buffer or as a reason for not supporting the Scottish living wage. To be honest, that is a great fallacy. The trade unions have been working extremely hard—not just in the UK but in Europe—to fight for the Scottish living wage, so we have a perfect opportunity. Of course, people say that businesses will need to sign up to it and blah-blah-blah, but that is not a problem. Why not implement the recognition scheme and give businesses the chance to do that? That would be a step forward, surely. It is a chance to give people the living wage that they deserve.

Before I ask Andrew McGowan to respond, let me just say that generally in this committee, although four members are from the SNP, we tend not to be partisan. Certainly, that has been my experience.

Let me just make Andrew McGowan aware of a couple of points. First, I was in Westminster when the minimum wage legislation was put through, so I know that an inspector scheme was set up legally to enforce the new measure.

Secondly, as someone who is involved in the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, which runs the Scottish Parliament, I know that we have looked carefully at living wage issues and have found that there are difficulties with putting a requirement for a living wage into procurement contracts. Alex Neil got advice from Europe on that. I am certainly not hiding behind that—personally, I am keen to make that a condition of our new contracts for catering and cleaning—but we got pretty strong internal legal advice about that. I would love that problem to disappear. There is no doubt that it is a big problem for the public sector in making conditions for future procurement. Sure, there might be some changes in legislation in Scotland, but the difficulty is to do with competition directives from Europe. I am not asking for an answer to that point. You are probably aware of the issue. Perhaps you could take my comment on board and get some other research on the matter.

Would Andrew McGowan like to sum up briefly?

11:15

I thank members for their views. I am proud of the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament for the broad support that they have shown and the steps that they have taken with regard to the Scottish living wage. I reiterate that the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government have a duty to each and every one of the 390,000 low-paid workers and the two thirds of children who come from a working household but find themselves in poverty.

The Scottish Government should be actively seeking to encourage businesses to pay a living wage, which will enable Scottish people to live, rather than just survive.

Thank you for answering our questions. As with the other petition, it is now up to the committee to consider the next steps.

We should take further advice as we consider the petition. It would be sensible to contact the Scottish Government and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. Are there any other views?

We should ask for the views of the FSB and other employer organisations. We should also seek the views of the Scottish Trades Union Congress. Clearly, it will have a vital interest in this area.

I was going to make a similar proposal. I have been pretty impressed with the presentation that we have had from Andrew McGowan. I would have thought that, as well as seeking views, we should be asking the Government to say how such a scheme would be run and what the implications of that would be. If there is a model, and the Government is not inclined to implement it, it might be that there are other ways in which that can be progressed through the business sector.

I take your point, convener. I suggest that you read the Official Report for what has actually been said by SNP members on the living wage.

On Europe, I understand the difficulty in terms of the guidance. When we write to the Scottish Government, we should say that, although the legislation says “encourage”, we need to drill down and see exactly what is happening in a European context. That should happen in the case of the procurement reform bill.

I would like to find out more information about the Glasgow scheme. Perhaps we could ask the Scottish Parliament information centre to do some research into that.

Yes. Do colleagues agree to the suggestions that have been made?

Members indicated agreement.

As you can hear, Andrew, we are interested in the petition and will continue our consideration of it. We will keep you up to date with developments. Thank you for your contribution. Please stay to listen to our consideration of the other petitions.

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Young Carers Grant (PE1470)

Our third new petition is PE1470, by Lauren King, on behalf of the Scottish Youth Parliament, on a young carers grant. Members have a note from the clerk and the SPICe briefing. I invite Lauren King to make a brief presentation of around five minutes. We will follow the same procedures as we did with the previous petitions.

A young carer is a child or young person who provides unpaid support to family or friends who could not manage without that help. That could be caring for a relative, partner or friend who is ill, frail or disabled or who has mental health or substance misuse problems.

Young carers are, in essence, an invisible group in society, yet it is estimated that there are 100,000 young carers in Scotland, who save the economy £10.3 billion a year. However, young carers can no longer survive as an invisible group. They play a vital role in providing crucial emotional and physical support and care. On a day-to-day basis, those caring roles lead to young carers and student carers facing multiple problems, such as barriers to their education, social exclusion and health problems, and some often live in extreme poverty.

I know exactly what it is like for many of those young carers. I have lived with my severely disabled brother, Ryan, for almost 10 years. I was just seven when I started caring. For many of us, feeding, bathing, changing, dealing with medication and multiple other tasks are a daily part of our lives. However, juggling caring roles, education and/or a job can be extremely difficult for a young carer, so why should they have the added burden of financial fears on top of that?

In the Scottish Youth Parliament’s “Change the Picture” manifesto, 88 per cent of young people agreed that young carers in Scotland should be shown that they are appreciated members of this society and should be offered more support inside and outside education. The Scottish Government should produce a carers strategy to help to improve the lives of young people who are carers, for the benefit of every young person who cares in Scotland.

Three years into the Scottish Government’s getting it right for young carers strategy, what impact has it had? The young carers strategy highlighted research showing that the majority of young carers had experienced economic deprivation. That could be due to one or no parents being able to work and the family having to rely on benefits. That means that many young carers are currently living on the bare minimum. The studies showed that young carers will experience financial hardship in their own right. Many young carers give up an income, employment prospects and pension rights, which could leave many of them stuck in poverty throughout their lives.

While they are at school, a young carer may be eligible to receive education maintenance allowance, but they must maintain a high level of attendance or payments will be withdrawn. With their demanding caring role at home, many young carers have to miss school on several occasions, through no fault of their own. That means that many young carers have to do without money to help to meet the costs of their education and, sometimes, to pay their bills.

Since I raised the issue with my local authority, North Lanarkshire Council has been very supportive and has started to investigate some cases of young carers’ EMA being stopped. However, that is not a permanent fixture, and something more has to be done nationally. If a young carer chooses to go on to further education at college or university, they are allowed to access a student bursary or loan, like any other student. Consequently, however, they lose their carers allowance.

The maximum level of financial support that a Scotland-domiciled student can access is less than what someone on benefits gets, and it is below the relative poverty line. That means that young students with caring responsibilities do not have access to enough financial support to study and to perform their caring responsibilities together. That has led to an increased drop-out rate, more mental health problems, illness and lower academic achievement. Thirteen thousand young carers provide care for more than 50 hours a week. How can they be expected to juggle a part-time job to help with living costs, like other students do, if they already have a full-time job at home?

It has been shown that the current welfare for young carers is not adequate and only leads to more difficulties for the young person. Most young carers struggle to survive with the lack of income support and with the pressures of studying and maintaining their caring responsibilities. Every day, young carers throughout Scotland are crying out for financial help, yet their voices are never heard. That is why something radical has to be done. We cannot ignore the 88 per cent of young people who say that young carers deserve better. I passionately believe that a young carers grant for carers in full-time education or under the age of 18 could make a positive change to a young carer’s life.

It must be very difficult for young people who are carers to keep their education to a reasonable standard. Is that your experience with your own caring duties?

Yes, that has been my experience. It is difficult to study with caring responsibilities. For instance, there are prelims coming up to Christmas, and that is also a time for increased illness. There can be great difficulties.

I was part of a young carers forum. As part of the young carers project, I moved on to the forum, and I then did governance work for the charity Action for Children. In the young carers forum, we found that the difficulties experienced by young carers during school time are a major issue. There is leeway with homework deadlines and so on, but it is the financial concerns that worry a lot of people.

How much would you envisage the grant being? Have you made any estimates of what the budget would be for Scotland on a yearly basis?

I have not looked into how much the grant should pay; I am just proposing the petition, and that is something that the Government could decide.

As you know, we will be integrating health and social care at a local level. What involvement have you had in any discussions regarding that?

In my young carers forum we did a lot of consultation work with social work as well as with the NHS. In a lot of cases, we would analyse any surveys that came out and offer criticism, saying, for instance, that some measures would not help young people. We were moved on to the forum as more educated young people, but there are other young people who are quite deprived and are not aware of what is going on around them. They would not be able to understand some of the things that healthcare services are putting towards them, because they have not had the education, they have not had the life experience to understand them and they have had nobody to tell them about such things. In some cases, their parents cannot understand them themselves.

People such as yourselves and your colleagues in the Youth Parliament can articulate the issues so well. Have you personally been involved in any discussions about plans at a local level?

I have had a lot of discussions with young carers, who have raised the issue that they are struggling financially. A lot of young carers feel that nobody listens to them because they are young. Sometimes they are afraid to say that they are a young carer, and sometimes they do not know that they are a young carer. I raised that point in a debate with council members in North Lanarkshire. My young carers group, Action for Children, had young carers there, but the young carer who was going to ask a question about the withdrawal of EMA could not stand up and ask it—the staff member had to ask it for her. That is when I had to say, “Look, I don’t think you’re getting the issue here. The issue is that young carers are not surviving. If they are not getting to school because of their caring issues, that is not their fault. They still want to be in education and they need that money.”

Shortly after that—the next day—North Lanarkshire Council started to investigate the problem. Since then, the young carers project in North Lanarkshire has referred to the council several cases of children whose money had been stopped, who were in critical financial circumstances and extreme poverty, and who relied on that money.

Thanks, Lauren, for a great presentation and for sharing your immense experience—both your personal experience and what you have learned in your role. What is your experience of the Scottish young carers services alliance?

I have not had great experience of the Scottish young carers services alliance. The North Lanarkshire young carers project is run through Action for Children, which is a different organisation.

I am certainly not trying to score any political points here. What the Scottish Government says that it will do for Scottish young carers looks really good on paper and it looks like carers will be recognised. You will know about that more than we do. Are you saying that that is not really happening on the ground?

The implementation of the young carers strategy was good at the time. I was part of the consultation work that took place at the young carers festival. When I was at the festival, I did not have a clue what I was being consulted on and I did not know that there was going to be a strategy. There needs to be greater awareness. Now that we are three years into the strategy, its effectiveness has to be reassessed. It is the case now that a lot of young carers have a voice and are saying, “Look, this isn’t right.” It is about time that something else was done.

I hope that you will champion that. You are a great ambassador for young carers.

Would any other colleagues like to ask a question?

You have not given us much of a clue for quantifying what sum of money would be associated with the grant. The EMA is about £30 per week, is that right?

Yes.

Local authorities ought to be sensitive to the issues about stopping or suspending the EMA and they should appreciate the circumstances that young carers have.

On top of the EMA, what is required? I notice that the grant would really be for carers in full-time education and those under 16. Can you give us a hint about the sum of money that would be appropriate for a grant?

A lot of young carers who are in education are getting their EMA stopped. I want to move away from the EMA and focus on the need for an unpaid carer’s allowance, because young people in education are still caring. If young people are in full-time education, however, they cannot apply for a carer’s allowance. That restricts their choices. Are they meant to choose money for their family to survive, or an education to better their future? It is a tricky question to ask a young carer: “What do you want to do? Pay for your family or get an education to pay for you in later life?”

I do not have a specific sum that I think that they should be paid. That is something to be worked out with the budget.

How would it relate to the benefits system? I could make an obvious political point about welfare benefits, but I would like to get your experience of how the benefits system interacts with your financial circumstances as a young carer.

I am not entirely sure how that would interact with the benefits system. My mother refuses a carer’s allowance because she believes that she should not be paid to look after her own child. However, in some circumstances, it is a parent who is disabled and children cannot survive only on the money that is coming in through benefits—there needs to be something else that supports young carers and not only allows them to have an education, but pays for their families. Most of the disabled parents cannot go out to work or, if the young person is not looking after their parent, the parent cannot work because they have to look after the other person. This is a diverse issue.

Yes, it is complicated.

11:30

My sister-in-law died of breast cancer at the age of 48. She had three children. The burden of care fell on a range of people, but particularly on one of her daughters, who—as you said—stepped forward out of a sense of love and duty as much as anything else. A point that arises from your petition that is perhaps not broadly considered is that young people who assist in that way—they are doing so voluntarily to help a family member—are potentially compromising their future at a critical point in their life.

I understand the issues raised in your petition, and I have a great deal of sympathy for them. I am interested to know whether you have views beyond the financial support that your petition seeks to secure. Are there other ways in which support should be provided for young people who find themselves in a caring position?

Almost every young carer’s project is run by a different authority. For example, the North and South Lanarkshire young carers’ projects are run by different organisations. Some are run by the council and others are run by external organisations. It is hard to say what else needs to happen.

A lot more consultation needs to be done with affected young people because many do not know where they are meant to go and who to give their views to. That is why I represent all young carers in my constituency, and I am putting the issue across because a lot of them have found that to be a big issue.

So there is a hugely variable approach from different local authorities. Would you welcome a more proactively designed national approach, rather than a variable one?

It is a national issue. Obviously, young carers help the country hugely. It is about time that Scotland stands up and says that it supports young carers. A lot of young carers feel a bit invisible and excluded from society. Many people do not understand what they are going through—a lot of people will not even know what a young carer is. It is a big thing for a young carer to explain why they care for their family, never mind them having to deal with not knowing who to share their issues with or how to get financial support.

We are now moving on to questions. We will use the same procedure as before, so please introduce yourself when you get the mike. I will take as many questions as I can before asking Lauren to sum up briefly and answer some of the points that have been raised.

I am the MSYP for Aberdeen Central. Do you not agree that the socialisation process is impacted as much as education is? In my constituency, we have VSA—formerly known as Voluntary Service Aberdeen—which is in control of the young people’s project. The project has a socialisation process which affects the issue. Even young carers need that impact in society.

I am the MSYP for the Scottish epilepsy initiative. I agree with the campaign, but I want know how—money aside—it will be assessed. My sister and I are carers. She does not have to miss education, but I worry about the social aspects. Would benefits be assessed on income or disability?

I am the MSYP for Edinburgh Northern and Leith. A question was asked about how much money should be given to young and student carers. All carers, including young carers, who care for more than 50 hours a week are paid the equivalent of £1.70 an hour through the unpaid carer’s allowance. That unpaid carers allowance is lost when they move into full-time education. That gives you an idea of the scale of the problem that young carers and student carers face. I will give you a proposal off the top of my head. The idea of paying carers the equivalent of what we consider to be the minimum wage or the living wage should surely be considered, given that £1.70 an hour is an absolutely disgraceful amount to expect someone to live on. The minimum wage would potentially not even be good enough, but it is one proposal, given that carers who provide more than 50 hours of care currently receive £1.70 per hour.

It is important not only that the gap in benefits for someone who goes into education is addressed and funded, but that the payment is at least above the minimum wage, because £1.70 an hour is just not good enough.

I am from North Ayrshire. We spoke to the members of a young carers group in the area who said that an unpaid carers allowance would be the difference between whether they had a childhood and a social life or not. Surely we must seriously address the need to give young carers the opportunity to have a social life and to be able to go out with their friends.

I am from Glasgow Southside. I was recently told that, at times in my life, I would have qualified as a young carer, which is not something that I ever took into any great account during those experiences. That highlights the point that Jackson Carlaw was getting at: we need to consider other aspects, especially in relation to letting people know that there are young carers and that there is support for them.

Chic Brodie mentioned the health and social care reforms, but I have never seen any consultation with young people on any of those reforms. Public sector reforms in my local authority area of Glasgow have meant that the city council officers have decided to remove young people from planning bodies and public areas as community representatives. That is a general point about young carers and young people—public sector reform is at times acting against those voices—and it relates to the petition. We also need to look at ensuring that the voices of young carers are not lost among the general voices in Scotland.

It is important that young carers are identified. I am the MSYP for East Kilbride in South Lanarkshire, which has done a lot of work with North Lanarkshire. The councils have spoken to all the young carers—we have quite a lot of carers in these areas, and the services for young carers in North and South Lanarkshire are quite good.

One thing that the carers brought up was the fact that, when young people who are getting the EMA are off sick, they can take a sick note in to school and they will still be paid the allowance. However, if they are a young carer, they cannot take in a young carers note and say, “I’m off because of this,” so they will not get paid. We need to think about that and how we can communicate properly with the schools, as it is a big problem.

That is a good point.

I am the MSYP for North Lanarkshire, and my point ties in with what Kyle Thornton said. Where will the line be drawn? Who is a young carer, and how are you going to identify that? Some carers are not being identified and are not given the recognition that they deserve, so we need to look at where the line will be drawn to identify them.

I am the MSYP for Shetland, and my question relates to the point that not all young people are in education. As someone who worked full-time and is now a student, I would like to know what Lauren King’s proposal has to do with young people who are young carers and perhaps working part-time. If they are caring for 50 hours a week, they might not be able to hold down a full-time job or even get a reasonable wage, which is relevant to the previous discussion. What are your thoughts on that?

In response to Emily Shaw’s point, the proposal would apply to young carers under the age of 18 as well as those in full-time education, because that is an issue.

I will pick up on Kyle Thornton’s points. I became a carer when I was seven, but I was identified as a young carer only when I was 13 and in high school. That was mainly because a young carers project took the initiative in going into schools, seeking out young carers and doing presentations to every single first year social education class. I was identified because of that organisation and not because of a Government policy that says that we must identify every young carer.

It is vital to identify every young carer as soon as possible. For instance, my primary school teachers, doctors and social workers knew about my situation, but nobody linked things together and thought “This is a young person with a disabled brother, so she must be doing something.” I empathise with Kyle Thornton’s point. It is vital to recognise young carers as quickly as possible so that they can get more support.

Nairn McDonald and Ashleigh O’Connor-Hanlon talked about social inclusion, which is a huge issue for young carers. A lot of young carers feel socially excluded. That can be because of financial worries. If somebody’s parents rely on benefits, they might not have enough money to fund going out with their friends, or enough time to get a job. Just allowing for time away from caring to go out with your friends is hard enough without having to think of where to find the money to do that. We need to make life a wee bit easier for young carers because, obviously, they save the Government billions of pounds every year.

It is now over to the committee to decide on the next steps. The procedure will be the same as with the previous petitions. We clearly need to do further investigation. It certainly seems a sensible next step to write to the Scottish Government, COSLA and the Scottish young carers services alliance, but I ask my colleagues for views.

Although it is fine to write to COSLA, as I keep saying, we need to drill down to find out what is actually happening. It might be worth while to write to each of the councils, asking for a timeous reply, to find out exactly what on earth they are doing. For example, we have just heard about differences between the Lanarkshire councils.

We should ask the Scottish Government to evaluate whether it has done what it said that it would do. That evaluation might be sitting there, but we do not know. We should also write to the Princess Royal Trust for Carers, which has a young carers service, for some advice.

As there are no further suggestions, do members agree that we will continue the petition and write to the organisations that we have just referred to?

Members indicated agreement.

I thank Lauren King again for her presentation and for answering the questions so well. I know that it is intimidating to give a presentation in the Scottish Parliament. We will keep you up to date with how the petition is going. I ask you and your colleagues please to stay on until we finish at 12, so that we can hear from Andrew Deans.