Local Government and Communities Committee

Meeting date: Wednesday, December 19, 2018

Official Report 711KB pdf

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Subordinate Legislation

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Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 (Tolerable Standard) (Extension of Criteria) Order 2019 [Draft]

The next item on our agenda is consideration of a statutory instrument that is subject to affirmative procedure. The instrument will amend the definition of “tolerable standard” in section 86 of the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 by adding requirements to have

“satisfactory equipment installed for detecting”

fire and carbon monoxide in all housing. The committee will take evidence on the instrument. I welcome again Kevin Stewart, the Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning. He is joined by Luke Macauley, who is the head of housing standards and quality, and Kirsten Simonnet-Lefevre, who is a solicitor with the Scottish Government.

The instrument has been laid under affirmative procedure, which means that Parliament must approve the instrument before the provisions can come into force. Following the evidence session, the committee will be invited to consider a motion to approve the instrument. I invite the minister to make a short opening statement.

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to the motion seeking approval for the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 (Tolerable Standard) (Extension of Criteria) Order 2019, which will require all homes to have smoke and heat alarms, and carbon monoxide detectors, which will strengthen and enhance fire safety for all Scottish homes.

The Scottish Government is committed to achieving improved fire safety. As I am sure the committee will agree, one death in Scotland from fire is one too many. In June 2017, following the tragic events at Grenfell Tower, the Government took immediate steps to establish a ministerial working group on building and fire safety. The group was established to offer public reassurance, to ensure that all the lessons from Grenfell were applied in Scotland and to help to ensure that people are safe in Scotland’s buildings.

In its work, the group agreed that the consultation on fire and smoke alarms, which was originally proposed through the common housing quality standard forum and was planned for winter 2017-18, should be prioritised. The consultation sought views on potential changes to the standards that are required for fire and smoke alarms in domestic properties in Scotland. As things currently stand, there are different standards for fire and smoke alarms, depending on the tenure of the home and when it was built. In the responses to the consultation there was very strong support for a common new minimum standard across all housing, regardless of tenure.

There was also strong support for the new standard to be based on the standard that currently applies to private rented sector properties. Account having been taken of those views, and as set out in the guidance that will accompany the order, it is proposed that the existing high standard that is required in the private rented sector and in new-build properties be extended to all homes.

Alarms may be hard wired or powered by long-life battery and should be interlinked. If an alarm sounds in the kitchen it might not be heard elsewhere in the house, therefore interlinking improves the chances of detection. Carbon monoxide alarms will also be required.

Scotland already has rigorous standards for smoke and fire alarms, but we want and expect everyone to benefit from the same level of protection. The standard will come into force in February 2021, however we hope that most people will recognise its safety benefits and take action much sooner.

Over the past 20 years the number of fires has nearly halved and the number of fire fatalities has fallen by more than 60 per cent. Significant progress has been made in fire safety as we seek to realise our vision of safer and stronger communities across Scotland. However, we must not be complacent. We know that the presence of working fire and smoke alarms significantly reduces casualties and fatalities within the home, so I ask the committee to support the motion, in order to improve fire safety in all Scottish homes.

I thank the minister for responding to a number of written questions that I had ahead of the session. That was very useful and will probably save some time.

You will recall that one of my questions was about what will happen when people cannot afford to have alarms fitted. Your reply includes an estimated cost of £200 to get hard-wired alarms put in. I suspect that it might cost a bit more than that because when you put new wiring in a house, you have to redecorate and so on.

Costs aside, you produced a very interesting and useful table on what councils are doing. You said that councils have

“powers to provide advice and assistance”.

Indeed, the initiative is called the scheme of assistance. There is a very patchy scene. The information is illuminating—21 out of 32 councils have not given out any money in the past year. In fact, Glasgow City Council accounts for 86 per cent of the money that has been spent. Are you planning to address the patchy situation?

I am very grateful to Mr Simpson for his questions and his engagement with officials. I understand that all committee members have my answers. As Mr Simpson said, they help to iron out a number of things.

Mr Simpson highlighted the scheme of assistance stats. It is up to local authorities what they want to do and how much to spend in the scheme of assistance; it is not for me to direct local authorities in that regard or on how they should utilise their resource. However, my experience as a councillor is that such schemes can be beneficial not only for the householder who gets the resource directly, but for others. Again, as I said in response to Alexander Stewart, there is best practice that could be looked at and exported; some authorities could benefit from the work that has gone on elsewhere.

It looks to me as though Glasgow is probably heavily promoting the scheme while other councils are not. Maybe we have best practice in Glasgow but not elsewhere.

I understand that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service can give alarms to people who cannot afford them, but those alarms would not be compatible with your new standards. Do you hope to address that issue?

As you would expect, we have had a huge amount of conversation with the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service about the changes. Considerations are on-going with the SFRS about funding to enable the new standard of alarms to be fitted through its home fire-safety visits, which are carried out at high-risk and vulnerable homes. We will continue those discussions in order to get it right.

I ask Luke Macauley to provide an update, because I know that discussions with the SFRS have been fluid.

There is no update, other than to say that consideration continues. As Mr Stewart has said, we have been talking to the fire service from the start of the consultation. We continue to do so, and we have very close engagement with it. As the minister also said on the scoping discussions, the potential for funding home fire-safety visits for higher risk and more vulnerable people is being actively considered.

Okay.

If a council officer goes into somebody’s house and finds that it fails to meet the tolerable standard, the most severe penalty is that they could tell the person that they need to move out. Your response to my written question uses the word “proportionate”. In my view it would not be proportionate to tell someone that they need to leave their home just because they do not have the alarms fitted. You are nodding your head, so I take it that you agree with that. I wonder whether we could set out in guidance something that makes that clear.

There is always difficulty with use of language in guidance, and definitions of various words have been asked for at various points. The word “reasonable” comes to mind.

I assure Mr Simpson and all committee members that I will go through the guidance with a fine-toothed comb to ensure that what we have is proportionate and that we get it spot on. I agree completely and utterly with him that it would not be proportionate to put someone out of their house, or to demolish it, because they do not have the alarms.

In general terms, what publicity is done on regulations such as these, which affect every home occupier in Scotland?

There will be a lot of awareness raising done about the changes. Again, we will do that in combination with partners, including the SFRS. We have also looked at ensuring that the publicity will ensure that people are not conned into buying something that is not the right fit for the new legislation. The committee can be assured that we will work on a strategy to ensure that we get the messages across to people. The last thing that I want is people being hoodwinked into getting incompatible systems. We will work in partnership with others to ensure that we get all that right.

I will follow up on that very point. I cannot think of the last time that legislation purported to require certain systems; in other words, it did not actually require them but appeared to do so. People will not like the idea that their houses might be below the tolerable standard. Probably a lot of the people to whom we are talking are also vulnerable. Therefore, ensuring that there is guidance on exactly what is and is not required, and ensuring that support is available through the usual consumer support groups is incredibly important.

We have had discussions with numerous people. I assure Mr Wightman that we will talk to consumer groups—Citizens Advice Scotland and others—in order to get that message across. It is imperative that we get the publicity right. I do not want to see anybody being fleeced.

To be clear, might that involve, for example, newspaper adverts that say that a deadline is approaching, or would that be a little bit too alarmist?

We will have to work that out. I am not going to sit here and say that newspaper adverts are the way forward, because they might not be. The key will be the messages from the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and the Government.

I see Ms Ewing nodding. The SFRS has been immensely good in relation to all aspects of the work that has stemmed from the ministerial working group. It is a trusted body. If there is a message to be put out there, it could be really helpful in doing that. The SFRS is not the only body, however. We will look to ensure that we get it absolutely right.

11:15  

The minister has anticipated my comment. Having sat on the ministerial working group and understanding the genesis of the regulations, which are very important in seeking to protect people from fire in the home, I know that the SFRS is a well-trusted public service—and rightly so. The service has earned that respect from the public and is very well placed to assist in the roll-out in a reasonable and proportionate way that will not alarm people, but will encourage them to consider their safety at home.

The next item on the agenda is formal consideration of motion S5M-15050. I invite the minister to move the motion.

Motion moved,

That the Local Government and Communities Committee recommends that the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 (Tolerable Standard) (Extension of Criteria) Order 2019 [draft] be approved.—[Kevin Stewart]

Do any members wish to comment?

Having heard the minister’s assurances, I am minded to support the order. As Ms Ewing suggested, it stemmed from important work following the Grenfell tragedy. We must remember where it has come from and that it is all about safety in the home. We are extending regulation to every home, including the owner-occupied sector. As Mr Stewart said, the private rented sector is already covered, but the owner-occupied sector is not. That is a difficult nut to crack. I want a system that is more carrot than stick, which I think is also what the minister is trying to achieve.

Given the minister’s assurances around guidance and what he has said about getting the SFRS involved, I support the order. The SFRS is a very important body in all this—having the fire service point people in the right direction about what to get in their homes would be useful.

I will sum up briefly. David McGown of the SFRS has said several things on the issue. He said:

“The presence of working smoke and heat detectors have been proven to significantly reduce casualties and fatalities occurring as a result of fires within the home. SFRS therefore welcome and support the next steps from this consultation which will undoubtedly improve home safety for all residents, regardless of tenure”.

Mr McGown was a member of the ministerial working group, as was Ms Ewing. I am very grateful to the SFRS for its collaboration in the work that we are doing.

There have also been positive responses from tenants and stakeholder organisations.

I finish on a happy note, given that this is the last time that I will appear before the committee this year—at least I hope so. I thank members for their co-operation. I am always more than happy to provide the answers that people need to questions that they consider might be a bit sticky. The fact that members, in particular Mr Simpson, went out of their way to ask questions means that the whole committee has benefited from the answers. I hope that that has made the committee’s job a little easier today.

I wish you all a merry Christmas and a happy new year. No doubt, I will see you early on in the new year.

I have no doubt about that, at all.

Motion agreed to,

That the Local Government and Communities Committee recommends that the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 (Tolerable Standard) (Extension of Criteria) Order 2019 [draft] be approved.

The committee will report on the outcome shortly. Do members agree to delegate authority to me, as convener, to approve the final draft of the report?

Members indicated agreement.

Thank you. I thank the minister for his attendance and wish him and his officials a merry Christmas and a happy new year. I look forward to seeing him in early January.

11:20 Meeting continued in private until 11:37.