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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 1 May 2025
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Displaying 1222 contributions

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Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Pensioner Poverty

Meeting date: 6 February 2025

Jeremy Balfour

I am a bit like Roz McCall’s mum in that I am information technology shy. I also think that most people out there are trying to scam me. I have heard lots of analysis of such problems, but I am still not sure how we can solve them. We all recognise that older people can find using IT or the telephone difficult. Age Scotland’s helpline will help with that. However, I am still struggling a wee bit with what local government and the third sector could do to engage with a group of people who do not like IT. There will not be a magic wand, but what steps could we take to make that easier?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

Would you accept that, with the exception of this committee, secondary legislation is less well scrutinised than proposed primary legislation?

11:00  

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

On the amount of secondary legislation, your thesis or argument is that there is not substantially more than there was 26 years ago. Do you not recognise that Covid and Brexit led to an increase in secondary legislation? That was absolutely justifiable, but they led to an increase.

We have also heard evidence that the Government has changed in the past 26 years. Rightly or wrongly, we live at a faster pace. We are all driven by social media, and decisions are made on that basis. That is a legitimate reason why there is more secondary legislation. Do you not accept that in any way at all?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

I return to your point about parliamentary time. Primary legislation does not come to the chamber on a weekly basis. We spend a lot of time debating important topics, but that is not legislation. The issue has to do with our approach to stage 1—we understand that. However, when we scrutinise bills, is the pressure on committees rather than on the whole chamber? My gut feeling is that we do a stage 3 no more than every six or eight weeks. That does not seem to be a lot of pressure on Parliament itself. There might be pressure on ministers and behind the scenes but, for Parliament, that deeper scrutiny is not a pressure on time, is it?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

You are not going to like this suggestion, minister, but, in the future, if there have been substantial changes to a bill through amendments, should there be scope between stages 2 and 3 for the committee to take more evidence from key stakeholders, before stage 3 amendments are considered? That would be up to the convener, but should it be in their mind that, if there has been a substantial change to a bill, that could be examined before stage 3?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

That is helpful.

When a bill team and the minister sit down to consider a piece of proposed legislation, how do they decide whether everything will be in the bill or whether to leave a lot more to secondary legislation? Is that a conscious decision? Is it something that your colleagues or those advising them think about, or does it just emerge as the process goes on?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

With all due respect, minister, I think that you are slightly underplaying this. The convener of the Finance and Public Administration Committee—Mr Gibson, who has been at the Parliament for 26 years—appeared before us last week and said that his committee finds it very difficult when that type of financial memorandum is issued and it cannot undertake detailed scrutiny. I think that his words were that none of that legislation should come to the Parliament. How do you respond to his comments?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

Good morning, minister. One of the comments that your colleagues make when a framework bill comes to the Parliament—particularly those that we have had recently—is that they want to consult and design the scheme with stakeholders. Thus, they want more to come under secondary legislation so that we can have that flexibility. Why can that co-design, which is a good thing, not be done before the legislation comes to Parliament? Everyone will then know what stakeholders think, although there are often different views among stakeholders, and then Parliament can come to a view. Why does that have to happen after the primary legislation has been passed?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

I am not quite sure that you have answered my question. Why can the co-design not happen first, so that the Parliament gets to scrutinise that? What is the benefit to the Parliament, to legislation and to good law if that co-design happens first?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

Do you think that one of the reasons why the Government got itself into an issue with the health and social care bill was that the co-design was going to be done once the legislation was passed but many voices were telling us different things? In retrospect, do you think that it would have been better for more detail to have been found about that bill at an earlier stage, so that Parliament could have come to a view on it, rather than moving it or kicking it into the long grass?