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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 7 October 2025
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Displaying 1347 contributions

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Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

Yes.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

That is an interesting philosophical question, which might be for another day.

I will move on. As you will be aware, one issue with secondary legislation is that we have to take it or leave it—we vote for it or we vote against it. We can make comments but, ultimately, the power that Parliament has is to say yes or no. Some witnesses have suggested that there should be an ability to amend secondary legislation or have the ability to conditionally approve it. For example, that might allow us to say, “We like 98 per cent of this, but we have real concerns about 2 per cent. Would the Government look at that again and bring forward a fresh view on it?” Could that approach work? Would the Government be open to it?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

On the amount of secondary legislation, your thesis or argument is that there is not substantially more than there was 26 years ago. Do you not recognise that Covid and Brexit led to an increase in secondary legislation? That was absolutely justifiable, but they led to an increase.

We have also heard evidence that the Government has changed in the past 26 years. Rightly or wrongly, we live at a faster pace. We are all driven by social media, and decisions are made on that basis. That is a legitimate reason why there is more secondary legislation. Do you not accept that in any way at all?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

I return to your point about parliamentary time. Primary legislation does not come to the chamber on a weekly basis. We spend a lot of time debating important topics, but that is not legislation. The issue has to do with our approach to stage 1—we understand that. However, when we scrutinise bills, is the pressure on committees rather than on the whole chamber? My gut feeling is that we do a stage 3 no more than every six or eight weeks. That does not seem to be a lot of pressure on Parliament itself. There might be pressure on ministers and behind the scenes but, for Parliament, that deeper scrutiny is not a pressure on time, is it?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

You are not going to like this suggestion, minister, but, in the future, if there have been substantial changes to a bill through amendments, should there be scope between stages 2 and 3 for the committee to take more evidence from key stakeholders, before stage 3 amendments are considered? That would be up to the convener, but should it be in their mind that, if there has been a substantial change to a bill, that could be examined before stage 3?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

That is helpful.

When a bill team and the minister sit down to consider a piece of proposed legislation, how do they decide whether everything will be in the bill or whether to leave a lot more to secondary legislation? Is that a conscious decision? Is it something that your colleagues or those advising them think about, or does it just emerge as the process goes on?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

Would you accept that, with the exception of this committee, secondary legislation is less well scrutinised than proposed primary legislation?

11:00  

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

Mr Jones, from a UK or Westminster perspective, we hear about co-design as well. Does that take place post or pre a framework bill being passed?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

I have a very brief question before you depart.

As you pointed out, secondary legislation cannot be amended—it is either accepted or rejected. It has been put to us that there should be some way in which a committee could seek conversations with the Government about amending secondary legislation or flag up that, for example, it agrees with 80 per cent of an instrument but has concerns about 20 per cent of it. The committee could ask the Government to go away and think about the issue again. Would that work, or is it something that sounds good in theory but, in practice, might not help?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

Do you have a view on that, Mr Carson?