Chamber and committees

Thank you very much, convener, and good morning to the committee. I offer my congratulations to new members of the committee, and to Michelle Thomson on her appointment as deputy convener. I am very grateful for the committee’s consideration of the draft SSI this morning.

As I indicated to the committee on 5 June, the draft regulations extend the coming-into-force date to 31 March 2025 for both the Scottish pubs code and the Tied Pubs (Fees and Financial Penalties) (Scotland) Regulations 2024. That will create much-needed space and time to carry out further discussions on the code with the sector. If I can bring forward the coming-into-force date, I will do so. In any event, I plan to bring forward a further amending SSI to make changes to the code following consultation.

The draft regulations before you correct drafting errors that the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee identified in the Scottish pubs code and fees and financial penalties instruments. They meet the Government’s commitment to the DPLR Committee to make an amending instrument to make the necessary changes. The regulations clarify that the rent assessment procedure ends two weeks after the offer of a market-rent-only lease. The regulations also clarify that the maximum financial penalty for not complying with the code is capped at 1 per cent of total group turnover where that is applicable.

I thank the committee for its consideration of the instrument.

We can give some background to the workplace equality fund and how it has operated in relation to a number of priority groups for whom there have been barriers to employment and referring to some of the work that has taken place to date and how we can apply it. I do not know whether Stephen Garland wants to add anything to his earlier remarks.

As I mentioned, we provided funding for the public social partnership. The partnership looked at identifying and developing solutions to deal with some of the gaps in understanding and expertise that employers might feel they have. We also provided funding over a number of years for the workplace equality fund, which looked at barriers to employment for a range of priority groups, including disabled people. There will be independent evaluations of those pieces of work, which will help to inform the work that we as a Government take forward with a range of partners.

Engagement is taking place, and I recognise that many employers do excellent work already. I also recognise the important work of the Federation of Small Businesses, which I know that you took evidence from. The Government is undertaking that work, and we will continue to take that partnership approach.

It struck me, from the evidence that the committee has received, that one way of looking at it is that a large employer with a well-developed administrative apparatus, human resources staff and so on, could be perceived as being in a better position to provide support for disabled people in employment. However, we also heard the experience of people in small businesses, where close relationships and a less formalised working environment can allow for the flexibility and support that is required.

I know that the committee will have taken evidence on the challenges that can exist in large organisations in respect of the co-ordination of approaches between various members of staff who have different responsibilities, and on the challenges and concerns for smaller operators, such as the time constraints, time pressures and their concern of getting it wrong. Large and small operators can have concerns, but I recognise that both have particular strengths. That tells me that, with continued work and engagement, we can support employers to build their understanding so that they have the confidence and the means not only to attract and recruit but to retain disabled people in employment.

Stephen, would like to add anything?

First, I have been made aware of those concerns directly. I know that the member and the committee will appreciate that it is not for me, as a minister, to comment on the commercial relationships that exist in that space. That point gets to the heart of striking the balance between the desire for the code to come into effect as soon as possible and the need for the code to be understood and perceived by tenants as being of value, not of detriment. That concern has been expressed.

I recognise that what we have is far from an ideal set of circumstances. The path that I am trying to take is to give the certainty that the code will come into effect, but also to work intensely with stakeholders to address those particular concerns, including those that the Scottish Licensed Trade Association has articulated in its correspondence.

I touched in my opening statement on the need not just to gain employment but for it to be fulfilling and sustainable. That is a priority: it cannot merely be a numbers game about trying to get as many people into work as possible. We must also create a structure and a package of support that enable people to sustain employment.

I will be engaging closely with partners over the coming weeks and months on those issues in order to fully identify and understand their views on what the drivers and causes are. Clearly, there are instances in which people are sustained in employment, and I want to make sure that we learn from that best practice. However, at the heart of our approach is recognition that everyone is an individual and that a range of circumstances could influence why someone does not sustain employment beyond a certain period, whether it is three months, six months or nine months.

Claire—is there anything that you want to comment on in terms of our wider learning and understanding?

You identify what can be some of the most challenging barriers to remove: those that can be created in our minds. That is indeed a challenge.

Without rehearsing all the things that have already been discussed this morning with regard to support for employability, joined-up approaches, engaging with education, schools and so on, I emphasise the power of example and the importance of ensuring that examples are widely shared and understood.

I mentioned the work that is under way on our national transitions strategy in my opening remarks. There is policy intervention, and there is partnership working, but—going back to the point about being ambitious while recognising the scale of the challenge of halving the disability employment gap by 2030—there is also recognition that cultural change can take time, and it does not always take place in a straight line, as there can be setbacks.

The broader direction of travel is clear, however. We are making progress and, as we move closer to achieving that ambition, that can serve as a way to deconstruct some of the cultural barriers. It becomes more real: going back to one of the key things that has been mentioned, it is a matter of making fair work the norm. That in itself can help people and can break down some of the cultural barriers.

I am under no illusion, however: that takes time, and it will come about only through demonstrable improvements—which have been made, but we still have a lot of work to do.

Thank you very much, convener. I am grateful for the opportunity to appear before the committee this morning. I welcome the focus of this inquiry and I put on record my sincere gratitude to all the witnesses who have appeared before the committee for a series of revealing and highly informative sessions.

I want to be absolutely clear about the Scottish Government’s unwavering commitment to ensuring that disabled people can access employment and that they can sustain and progress, not just in any employment but in fulfilling and fair work. I understand that the inquiry will consider the different elements, which is welcome.

Since we made the commitment to halve the disability employment gap, there has been substantial progress. At 30.2 percentage points, the disability employment gap in 2023 was at its lowest since our baseline year of 2016, when it was at 37.4 percentage points. That is the second smallest disability employment gap among the UK nations, with only England having a smaller gap, at 26.2 percentage points. Overall, that means that the gap has narrowed by more than 7 percentage points since 2016, and we are making good progress towards our ambition to halve the gap by 2038.

We continue to deliver the commitments that are set out in the fair work action plan across policy areas and in partnership with stakeholders, including disabled people’s organisations. That includes having delivered a public social partnership and the workplace equality fund, which provide support to employers to improve their knowledge and practices in the recruitment and retention of disabled people. We will commission independent evaluation and consider how to best build on and disseminate the learning from those initiatives to employers.

Through the no one left behind programme, tailored person-centred employability support is being provided for disabled people and those with long-term health conditions. We established a Scottish access to work stakeholder forum to allow stakeholders to engage directly with the Department for Work and Pensions to influence policy and the delivery of this UK Government programme.

Work is under way to look at how our health system can better support people to stay healthy in work and move from economic inactivity back into work. Work is progressing to develop Scotland’s first national transitions to adulthood strategy.

We are changing people’s lives for the better. However, there is still much more to do, including improving our evidence base so that we can better identify what is working and build on that. Other challenges include societal prejudice and stigma, employers’ concerns about getting it wrong and there being an older working-age population in Scotland than there is in the rest of the UK. To improve that, we must continue to work together with partners across sectors to make real improvements and create lasting cultural change.

The committee will have heard of some very positive examples, but it will have heard about variation and inconsistency, too. Variation will, to some extent, always be a feature of any locally administered scheme. We do recognise the value of a local place-based approach that is integrated with partners, including employers, on the ground, because this is all about responding to the needs and assets of a particular location. There will be variation, but what we want is variation that arises from a positive response to a location’s particular challenges and opportunities rather than variation that occurs through lack of knowledge of best practice elsewhere.

That is why we are taking this partnership approach. The collaborative way in which we are seeking to operate with local government—which is something that I am very much looking forward to—will help ensure that we respect the importance and value of local delivery, facilitate the sharing of knowledge of best practice and provide the level of consistency that we want, without in any way seeking to stymie innovation and an approach that is fundamentally place based.

The first thing to recognise is that meeting our ambitions on halving the disability employment gap will not be achieved by any one stakeholder, organisation, group or partner in isolation; it will be a collaborative approach.

As the committee will appreciate from the evidence that it has taken, collaboration is at the heart of the approach to address many of the challenges that we face, whether we are addressing the cultural and social barriers that exist, ensuring that our employability landscape is integrated and provides a person-centred tailored approach, or helping to facilitate the sharing of best practice and confidence building among employers.

Although I—the minister for employment—am appearing before the committee this morning, addressing the disability employment gap is a shared agenda across Government portfolios. Various portfolio areas have significant contributions to make to help us to achieve that ambition by 2038.

Crucially, spheres of the Government work in partnership with local government, which is at the heart of our approach to employability. We also recognise the important role that the UK Government plays. Reference is made to access to work, for example, and how we are helping to facilitate stronger engagement through that process. I take very seriously the substantial challenge that we still face.

I recognise the points that have been highlighted by the Fraser of Allander Institute in collaboration with the Scottish Parliament information centre, particularly on where progress has been made on halving the gap. That has been driven, in large part, by issues of prevalence and people already in work being classed as disabled. As such, we recognise that there is still significant progress to make.

That said, it is also important to recognise that, with regard to our interim targets for the employment rate of disabled people, we met our interim 2023 target of 50 per cent a year early. We have set ourselves a target of 60 per cent by 2030, so we are making progress there.

We are working on addressing issues around measurement and data, whether in the shared measurement framework on employability services or on the fair work evidence plan that we published earlier this year. We recognise that we have work to do to address gaps in data and evidence, and I think that that speaks very much to your point about the challenges of disaggregating particular types of impairment and the recognition that, within that space, there can be quite significant variation in outcomes. Again, we will work in partnership and collaboratively with employability services, employers and our skills and education systems to ensure that we provide as much support as possible and collectively help to address the broader cultural and societal barriers that exist.

I completely accept and recognise that point. I do not think that any of us in our capacity as elected members engaging with organisations in our respective constituencies and regions would not have had those conversations. I have engaged with organisations in my ministerial capacity in previous roles, so I recognise the challenge. To the greatest extent possible, I recognise the broader uncertainty and challenges that we face in the overall budgetary position, which is just owing to the way in which the public finances and fiscal framework operate in Scotland. I want to work to provide as much certainty as possible, because I completely recognise and accept the legitimate concerns that are raised. The uncertainty has consequences, and I want to work to help address that.