Chamber and committees

Good morning. I thank the committee for allowing me to speak to my amendments to the bill. I want to say at the outset that, along with every other MSP I know in the Parliament, I am in full agreement that every person should be treated equally, irrespective of colour, creed, religion, sex or gender.

However, I do not think that you can create equality for one section of society by creating inequality in another section of society. What I am looking for—I am sure that this is what we all want—is everybody to have equal and fair access to all aspects of society, including sport. My amendments are on the impact on sport, because, as drafted, the bill’s impact on sport will be significant. These issues are already happening in sport, and the bill, as drafted, will accelerate that.

The committee deemed sport important enough to include it in its investigation, but it did not take any evidence from sportswomen. Instead, it decided that trans activists and men would suffice. That speaks to a global issue, because women participants are being warned not to speak out when confronted by the prospect of competing against trans women, which silences those who are most impacted by the issue.

Amendment 1 would insert into the bill a responsibility on the part of the Scottish Government to report on the impact on sport of the eventual act. Amendments in this group would require the Scottish Government or the registrar general to publish information, guidance or reports on the operation or impact of the provisions, once they are implemented.

There is precedent here, and the reason why we need that provision—and the reason why I am worried—is that sport is not set up to deal with this. We do not need to look too far into the past for an example of that. Caster Semenya was the Olympic 800m champion. She is intersex, and sport just did not know how to deal with it—and dealt with it appallingly. Caster Semenya herself was treated appallingly, and that still happens.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission has highlighted several areas in which the effect of the bill’s provisions on the operation of the protections from sex discrimination in the Equality Act 2010 is unclear. It has urged that further consideration be given to that before legislative change is made. There would be an additional requirement to publish information and guidance and to publish reports on the impact of the eventual act. Some of the examples that the EHRC gives relate to the trans community and also to sport. That data could usefully assist in ensuring the effective implementation of the act and monitoring its impact in practice. It recommends that these amendments be considered.

We should look at what currently happens in sport. All I am asking is that we register and understand what the impact would be on the participation of transgender people in sport. Sport already does that: we know how many people participate by age, by sex, and by disability—although, I have to say, I hate that categorisation, but, obviously, there are Paralympic categories. We need to ensure that we protect women, specifically, and trans people.

Sport is trying to look at how to deal with the issue. I notice that, for competitions, there are now three categories: men, women and non-binary. However, there is nowhere for those in the non-binary category to participate. They must still choose whether to compete as men or as women. Therefore, it is hugely important that we continue to do what sport has always done, which is to measure what is happening in the sport to understand the categories, and we need to do that in order to understand what the impact will be. As I said, sport itself is struggling to deal with this. I ask members to vote for amendment 1, for the protection of women and the trans community.

I move amendment 1.

I am telling you what is happening out there, cabinet secretary. Sports national governing bodies are not making the right decision, because they are frightened of ending up in court. That is what is happening out there.

I can go through as many power and speed-based sports as you like. Some are making one decision, while others are making a different decision—to the detriment of women. That is happening out there, cabinet secretary. It is not a matter of having a bit of paper telling us what the rules are; if the rules are clear, can you tell me why they are not being applied across the whole of sport? The approach is not working, and something has to be done properly to deal with the situation.

I want to develop that point with Anjum Klair. Chris Brodie brought up the issues around city centres, including that, with the rise in virtual and hybrid working, there is less footfall. Of course, that has had an immediate impact on many city-centre businesses that perhaps have not managed to adapt as quickly as they needed to. Has Covid put our city centres under pressure? What needs to happen there? My view is that, after Covid, many businesses expected to fall back to where they were before, but their workforces are resisting that and almost demanding that the hybrid working system continues.

Perhaps Anna Ritchie Allan would like to come in on that.

Convener, do I have time to ask another question?

It is for Liz Cameron. The issue is not just a lack of people or bodies on the ground; if people are retiring earlier, that is draining our resources and experience. Would you agree that Covid has exacerbated that issue and that we need to tackle it immediately?

You know me, convener. Let me have a wee look at my papers.

Good morning. I will continue on that theme, which I thank Liz Cameron for bringing up.

We have a huge opportunity with the green economy, but we are not—as we should be doing—weaving the green economy into our education system nearly fast enough. Just last week, I was at the Kilmarnock campus of Ayrshire College, which has apprenticeship places available. I was also at some engineering works that are short of apprentices. There are higher levels of unemployment in my region.

In my view, we have all the bits and bobs there, but we are not connecting up all the elements. We have a huge opportunity with the green economy. However, to respond to Liz Cameron’s point, I do not think that we are doing that well enough. Would you agree?

One question has occurred to me—it is almost a regional question. There is a consistent draining of the workforce from rural to urban areas. What impact has Covid had on that, and what do we need to do to try to stem the flow? That question is for Liz Cameron.

We are well aware that Covid has caused significant impact on and change to working practices, including in the form of the hybrid system. I will pose a general question to everybody: are businesses managing to change at the pace that is being demanded by the workforce? Chris Brodie, do you want to start?