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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 20 August 2025
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Displaying 5898 contributions

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Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Finlay Carson

Thank you very much. We have about 90 minutes for questions. My first question was going to be about the bill’s overall purpose, but you have covered most of that in your opening statement.

Is the bill a sledgehammer to crack a nut? Given that you have said that the vast majority of fox control is not with dogs, what level of deliberate or unintentional law breaking is there under the existing legislation? Taking that into consideration, is the new bill not based on the principle of evidence, and is it more to do with prejudice and stopping mounted packs?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Finlay Carson

Okay. Thanks very much.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Finlay Carson

We move to questions from Rachael Hamilton.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Finlay Carson

I understand that. However, if someone goes out on a rough or mixed shoot—which is not necessarily about controlling wild mammals; it includes pheasants and game, but rabbits may be flushed—that would be illegal under the bill.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Finlay Carson

I have real problems with that. Across the country, there are rough shoots which, at the moment, are perfectly legal. There might be half a dozen people with two or three Labradors that will flush pheasants. However, there are also rabbits, and the intention is to flush, which is defined as hunting in the bill. If a fox or rabbit is flushed, and that fox or rabbit is shot, or the dogs continue to flush, there is a problem, and that has a potential impact on rough shooting. Last week, Police Scotland said:

“That is a difficult one. That is where intent would come into it, and it might be difficult to differentiate. That opportunity is always going to be there, if dogs are flushing game legally but encounter a mammal and chase it. That risk is there. I do not know whether that is necessarily addressed by the bill.”—[Official Report, Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee, 22 June 2022; c 14.]

That is my concern. At the weekends, it is probably very common for there to be rough shoots in mixed gorse, where there will be pheasants but also rabbits. If there are three dogs in the gorse bushes, people could say that they do not intend that their dogs will chase rabbits, but they will flush them, and that is hunting. Where in the bill would that point be clarified? Police Scotland and, if I remember rightly, the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service had issues about how that would be determined.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Finlay Carson

In effect, that means that mixed shoots will become illegal, despite the fact that there is no evidence to suggest that any animal welfare issues relate to them.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Finlay Carson

Thank you for that helpful clarification.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Finlay Carson

That is fine. If you do not get a response to the question that you are trying to ask, I will bring you in at the end.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Finlay Carson

Rachael Hamilton has a supplementary question.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Finlay Carson

I am not sure that that question is applicable to the bill that is in front of us, which is about animal welfare. You may comment if you wish to, minister, but I do not think that you should feel obliged to do so because that is not really covered in the bill.