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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 13 January 2026
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Displaying 1875 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of UHI Perth”

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Greene

Thank you very much for that. I echo those comments because it has clearly been a tremendous turnaround in difficult circumstances, which has been evident in today’s session and the written submissions that you have given us.

This is the Public Audit Committee, so I want to briefly see where we are at with budget-setting processes. The Auditor General focused entirely on 2023-24, but when reading the papers I got a sense that there were some recurring issues around setting a budget in 2024-25, which are evident in the minutes from October. One board member said that they would

“not be comfortable in passing a Budget”

because there was not a three-year cash-flow plan.

There were lots of discussions about how difficult it would be to produce a cash-flow plan, because the previous year’s issues were still issues in that financial year, which was not long ago. In fact, even at that board meeting, the board did not approve a budget. At the end of October—midway through the year—a budget had still not been set, which I am sure that the auditors will look at.

Where are we at the moment? Is there a better atmosphere in the board discussions? Do you feel more comfortable understanding your cash flow, so that you can make those projections properly and come to an agreement that budgets—using the best knowledge available to you—will be set more promptly, and another section 22 report can be avoided in the future?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of UHI Perth”

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Greene

Since then, it has reported a deficit every year. Is that correct?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of UHI Perth”

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Greene

It surely cannot be good for the delivery of quality local education in Perth and Kinross.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of UHI Perth”

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Greene

Out of how many, roughly?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2025: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Greene

I will carry on with the line of questioning about the state of the finances of NHS boards. As you have already noted, a number of them have received considerable amounts of brokerage. Just for the benefit of the public out there, what exactly is brokerage and how does it work?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of UHI Perth”

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Greene

While you are looking, I simply note that I am trying to get my head around the effect that that has had on the volume of teaching that is taking place.

I will come on to look specifically at courses that have been cut shortly, but I can see why there has been so much adverse reaction locally and nationally. The situation has caught the eye of not only auditors but the sector more widely. If you lose 100 staff, it sounds like you are also losing a lot of teaching. Again, in what way is that a good thing?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of UHI Perth”

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Greene

I will move on. I looked at the financial sustainability project papers that were submitted, which date from April 2024, and at the courses that were cut over that period—including in the schools-college programme and FE and HE courses—and I could not get my head around why those courses were cut. Is it because you could not afford the courses due to their technicality? Was it the cost of the staff, and if you lose a member of staff who teaches that course, you obviously lose the course? Was it simply that you were struggling to recruit adequate student numbers to make the courses financially viable? That would surprise me because horticulture, skills for work, construction, accounting, software, web technologies and environmental sciences are all growth areas in the Scottish economy, but those are the areas where you are making cuts. It makes no sense to me.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2025: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Greene

That is extremely helpful—thank you. From a constituent’s point of view, they are still sitting on a waiting list and wondering why their health board is making savings. That is the crux of my question. We know that five boards are sitting at level 3 intervention and one is at level 4. Is there any evidence that that situation will improve any time soon?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of UHI Perth”

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Greene

I wish you luck.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of UHI Perth”

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Greene

Thank you. That sounded very positive and was very helpful.

I have read all the board minutes that have been supplied to us, particularly those from 2024, and I was a bit surprised by their tone. I could almost imagine myself in the room with some of those people—it did not seem like a happy board, in any way, shape or form. First of all, then, what is the current state of play with the board at UHI Perth? My interpretation of the board members’ input is that a lot of contrary views and opinions were being expressed on pretty much everything, even by the chair.

I refer you to the minutes of the 23 October 2024 board meeting. A couple of things struck me about them, the first of which was a quote from the chair that I will ask for your opinion on in a moment. The minutes say:

“Chair ... noted that the College makes money from FE and loses in HE, but there is no breakdown of these figures”,

so the provenance of that conclusion and how it was reached is unclear. The chair then asked:

“if the College are not making money from HE why are we doing it?”

That is my question to you today.