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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 May 2025
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Displaying 1112 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

P&O Ferries

Meeting date: 29 March 2022

Liam Kerr

Finally, P&O accepts that UK employment law was broken such that hundreds of employees could potentially have prosecuted unfair dismissal claims. It is difficult to see how such claims could have been successfully defended. I have no doubt that in making your plans you were aware that the primary remedy for a successful unfair dismissal claim is reinstatement. What planning did you do for a situation in which a tribunal ordered the reinstatement of all those employees? Did you plan to comply with such an order or would that authority have been ignored as well? Had that situation come to pass, what loyalty would you have shown to the new agencies?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

P&O Ferries

Meeting date: 29 March 2022

Liam Kerr

On a point of clarification, I am not suggesting that you are being very generous.

It is interesting that a two-year payback period leads to the conclusion that you cannot carry out the consultation required by statute, but I will let others pick up that point.

I will move on to an issue that is interesting from the point of view of various parties. In 2019 and 2020, P&O registered losses of around £130 million, and the suggestion is that there will be a further £131 million loss in 2021, for which DP World has offered a facility of £100 million. That begs the question, how certain are you that P&O is good for the £36 million settlement and the agency fees? Have you given the agencies guarantees? They may feel that they are taking a financial risk by doing business with a company that you described earlier as “unviable” and that chooses to ignore the law of the land if a bit of money is thrown around.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

P&O Ferries

Meeting date: 29 March 2022

Liam Kerr

That seems to be a slightly different answer from the first one that you gave me, with respect. Will that document be published and made publicly available? I would have thought that the land-based employees would need to know the details.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

P&O Ferries

Meeting date: 29 March 2022

Liam Kerr

I have one final thing to raise, convener, if I may. It is something that my friend Monica Lennon brought up earlier that really troubles me. Mr Hebblethwaite, you accept that you wilfully, consciously, and knowingly broke the law. You offended against UK employment law, a law that Parliament felt to be so important that it attached a protective award to it to mandate compliance. Does that not trouble you, as a company director, and make you question whether you are truly a fit and proper person and are discharging fiduciary duties to your company if you are content simply to break one of the strongest laws that Parliament has put in place?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

P&O Ferries

Meeting date: 29 March 2022

Liam Kerr

I have no further questions, convener.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

P&O Ferries

Meeting date: 29 March 2022

Liam Kerr

I will just push you on that point, if you do not mind, Mr Hebblethwaite. Just for absolute clarity, you are telling the committee that there are no strategic plans, whether in draft or finalised, to do anything to the land-based staff at Cairnryan—is that correct?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

P&O Ferries

Meeting date: 29 March 2022

Liam Kerr

That is not your only duty, is it, Mr Hebblethwaite? As a company director, you have fiduciary and legal duties. What I asked was whether you consider yourself to be a fit and proper person who is discharging not merely the duty that you just mentioned but the full raft of fiduciary duties for your company, given that you wilfully and knowingly took a decision to offend against one of the strongest laws that Parliament has put in place.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

P&O Ferries

Meeting date: 29 March 2022

Liam Kerr

Yes, but have you not just said that you would have ignored any such order from a tribunal?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

P&O Ferries

Meeting date: 29 March 2022

Liam Kerr

Mr Hebblethwaite, I understand that there are a number of land-based employees of P&O, many of whom are based at Cairnryan. Does P&O have any strategic plans, whether finalised or in draft, that would impact on those employees in some way? Obviously if they are to be restructured, transferred under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations, or dismissed, they will be legitimately concerned.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Role of Local Government in Delivering Net Zero

Meeting date: 29 March 2022

Liam Kerr

Thank you. Moving on, I will direct follow-up questions to Grant Tierney and the two Ians at the CITB.

In answer to the last question, Gordon Nelson talked about the need to develop a plan or a co-ordinated strategy. The Scottish Government and Skills Development Scotland published a climate emergency skills action plan in December 2020, which presumably aims to achieve what Gordon has rightly suggested that we need to achieve. That begs the question: what engagement have your organisations had with the action plan? Are any of you on the implementation group, for example? In your view, is the plan on track to ensure that the necessary skills are in place to support our transition to a net zero economy? If not, who needs to act and what needs to happen?

That is for Grant Tierney first.