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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 4 September 2025
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Displaying 1199 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 11 June 2025

Liam Kerr

I understand the point that is being made but, as I said, Simon Brown of the Scottish Solicitors Bar Association told this committee:

“At a practical level … we see the effective decriminalisation of shoplifting. Shoplifting becomes an offence that is viewed as a low-level crime”.—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 22 January 2025; c 32.]

I understand the point that the cabinet secretary is making, but we have to consider how the offence is viewed, and that is the point that was made by that witness to this committee.

Finally, there is one more reason why I am not persuaded by the cabinet secretary’s arguments. She said clearly that she has no plans to increase the level of fiscal fines and that she has other things to deal with. Of course, I completely understand that. However, there is a reshuffle going on right now, as I understand it, and an election pending in less than 12 months. I would argue that, when the cabinet secretary said in her remarks that we need to future proof the legislation, she made my point for me.

For the reasons that I have outlined, I press amendment 50.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Liam Kerr

Would you like to come in, Katy?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Liam Kerr

I am grateful. Do colleagues have any further questions?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Substance Misuse in Prisons

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Liam Kerr

Our next item of business is to continue our inquiry into the harm that is caused by substance misuse in Scottish prisons. Today’s session will give us the opportunity to take evidence from a panel of witnesses with experience of supporting people in prison and their families. It is a preparatory session to help to shape our understanding of the key issues and inform the rest of our evidence taking.

I am pleased to welcome Kevin Neary, co-founder and co-ordinator, Aid & Abet; Dr Sarah Rogers, senior policy and public affairs officer, Families Outside; Professor Susanna Galea-Singer, clinical lead and consultant psychiatrist, NHS Fife addiction services; Gemma Muir, senior manager, Sustainable Interventions Supporting Change Outside; and Tracey McFall, chief executive officer, Scottish Recovery Consortium. I refer members to papers 2 and 3, and I thank the witnesses who provided written submissions in advance. I intend to allow up to two hours for the session.

I will commence with a pretty open question, which I will give each of you the opportunity to respond to. I will start with Kevin Neary. What are the impacts of people using substances in prison on those who are using the substances and/or their families and other prisoners?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Substance Misuse in Prisons

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Liam Kerr

I am very grateful—that is extremely helpful to start us off. Dr Rogers, you talked persuasively about what happens when families are visiting and there is an issue that means that contact is not allowed or children are not allowed to interact properly with the prisoner. On the flip side, presumably, the SPS has to be ultra-cautious in order to prevent substances getting into prison in the first place. Do you have any thoughts on how the balance can be struck such that there is not the negative impact that you persuasively outlined but that, at the same time, the SPS can do its job to the best of its ability?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Substance Misuse in Prisons

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Liam Kerr

That is very helpful.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Substance Misuse in Prisons

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Liam Kerr

Thank you. Before I bring in Pauline McNeill, I will take a short supplementary from Rona Mackay. First, I have a quick question for Kevin Neary on matters that he was discussing with Sharon Dowey. What about protected or segregated prisoners? Is there an issue with them accessing programmes because different types of prisoners cannot mix?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Substance Misuse in Prisons

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Liam Kerr

I thank you all for what has been a very interesting and informative session for us. It will be extremely helpful to the committee as we shape our inquiry.

Throughout the session, some of you have offered to write to the committee with further information—for example, Tracey McFall offered to send on some data. The committee loves data, so if you have something in which we would be interested, please send it on.

Gemma Muir, you said something interesting about the play that you wrote—I am sure that we would value more details on that if you were able to send them in.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Substance Misuse in Prisons

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Liam Kerr

That is now on the public record.

At our next meeting, on Wednesday 11 June, we will consider an affirmative SSI on home detention curfew licences and a negative SSI on firefighters’ pensions, and we will begin stage 2 proceedings on the Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill. Members may wish to recall that the deadline for lodging amendments for stage 2 of that bill is noon tomorrow.

With that, we move into private session.

12:32 Meeting continued in private until 12:56.  

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 4 June 2025

Liam Kerr

Thank you. We will move to questions from colleagues.