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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 9 May 2025
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Displaying 1112 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

They may be technical amendments, but surely the minister ought to put on the record why the amendments are necessary and have therefore been lodged, so that the committee at least can understand, and so that anyone who is reading the Official Report is able to understand in the future.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

I just want to be clear about what is being proposed. The minister has suggested that there will be a round-table event to allow people to go away and consider all the issues. Meanwhile, we will be passing the bill as proposed at stage 3, which presumably will happen before the conclusions of the round-table event have come back. Will those conclusions be included later as amendments to what at that point will be the act? Is that correct, minister?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

That is not quite what I asked, minister. I asked whether you had received formal legal advice when arriving at your position of confidence and thinking that the amendment distorts things.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

The minister suggested that amendment 206 does not specify which cases it relates to. How does that position hold up when, arguably, it is specified because it is about cases that are permitted pursuant to section 15? Will the minister address that point?

Will she also address the point about time, which was made when my colleague Ross Greer intervened on me and I responded? There are matters that could arise between the initial statement that the minister has spoken about and any further statement. Will she address that point?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

Ross Greer intervened on me and I thought that it was a fair intervention. He said that, if a statement has already been made earlier in the process, it could be argued that we are asking people to relive their trauma. My response was that the amendment would simply give the victim the option to make a further statement. You did not address that point in your remarks, so I wonder whether you could give us your thoughts about that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

With respect, minister, you can. I was saying that the amendment would give the victim a further opportunity. It is not about ethos; it is about offering a further opportunity. Why do you reject that opportunity being afforded?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Liam Kerr

But that principle is not offended by amendments 189 and 190. To say that it is, is factually incorrect, is it not?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Liam Kerr

Amendment 179 is another of Russell Findlay’s amendments that I will speak to, as he is unable to be with us today.

This amendment relates to the principle of transparency with regard to open justice. As I explained earlier on amendment 189, victims groups have raised serious concerns about an information vacuum in relation to the panel system. As was set out earlier, more criminal cases will be dealt with by the panel, and that number will increase as a result of the rise in the age.

Scotland’s courts are public buildings. They are open to the public, with proceedings conducted, by and large, in public—that is the default position, albeit that there are important safeguards in place. Judges are, of course, able to conduct proceedings in private and to issue other orders where relevant in relation to victims and witnesses, but the principle remains that transparency is fundamental to open justice, and that must be cherished. Amendment 179 simply seeks to extend that transparency to the panel system, which is increasingly dealing with cases—often serious—of a criminal nature. Crucially, the amendment caveats that by ensuring that the chair will still be able to refuse attendance when that is in the best interests of the child.

I move amendment 179.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Liam Kerr

How does the principle that the minister has just elaborated stack up against the caveat in section (2) of the amendment, which would allow the chair to make the appropriate decision in the best interests of the child?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Liam Kerr

I have listened very carefully to what the minister has to say, and she says that she does not agree with the premise of the amendment, but the premise of open justice and transparency is core. Russell Findlay has also put in, very clearly—