Chamber and committees

There are two separate issues there. One is that, if we had not done the reforms, we would be content to spend significant resources on things that were—

That resource has been made available more widely.

There is a separate question about how much money is spent on the items that you have identified. If we had not done the reforms, we would be in a worse place, because we would be starting three steps back from the starting line before we even started to have that conversation. We would be spending money on duplication and the aspects that were taken out as a consequence of the reorganisation. It is important to consider those issues separately.

I will go and look at the specifics of that. I do not know whether Mr Gray has anything to say on that but, more generally, I make the point that we are looking across the whole public sector and indeed beyond precisely in order to identify where there are opportunities to do things—

Will you let me finish on this? It is an important point.

I do not recognise those numbers. As you have already indicated, we have laid out the spending plans for years up to 2029-30 in the recently published spending review. As my colleague Mr Gray has indicated, there are challenges with the funding that will come from the UK Government next year. The Deputy First Minister will announce the budget in short order to address those challenges—

There will be individuals who are better placed to reflect on that than me. I would not call those services “poster children”, but I would say that they are examples of what can be done.

Looked at simply from the perspective of resource allocation, or the effectiveness of that allocation, it is important to recognise that significant costs have been taken out from areas of duplication in the services, which continues to be the case each year, and that resource is available for investing in front-line service delivery. Some aspects are very effective, such as the ability to co-ordinate more effectively—whether facing into organised crime or cybercrime—technology and sharing data. There are always things that you can do better and there will be lots of details that we can learn from, and it is valuable to take those lessons in terms of both the opportunity that is there and as we move forward to roll out restructuring across other parts of the public sector.

I welcome the opportunity to appear alongside my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Justice to discuss with the committee the role of public service reform in supporting the long-term sustainability of Scotland’s justice services.

As the cabinet secretary has outlined, justice organisations are operating in a challenging environment in which they face significant pressures and increasing demand. In that context, public service reform is not a separate programme that sits alongside the justice portfolio; it is about how we improve outcomes while ensuring that services remain sustainable for the future. In the letter that I provided to the committee, I set out how the principles of Scotland’s public service reform strategy apply specifically to the justice portfolio. The central argument is simple: in a constrained fiscal environment, if we are to maintain public safety, access to justice and public confidence, we must reduce avoidable demand, improve the way that services work together and make better use of public resources.

The public service reform strategy is built around three connected themes—prevention, joined-up services and efficient services—and the programme for government has committed us to accelerating that work. In justice, that means intervening early to prevent problems from escalating and addressing the underlying drivers of demand where possible. It also requires a whole-system perspective, recognising that outcomes are shaped by interactions across policing, prosecution, courts, prisons, community justice, health services, local government and the third sector.

We need to make the best possible use of public resources by building on successful reforms that have already been delivered, investing in digital transformation, reducing duplication and ensuring that workforce and financial resources are focused on where they add greatest value. It is important to see that as not just being about reducing costs; it is about improving outcomes, reducing avoidable demand and creating services that are sustainable over the long term.

As I set out in my letter, justice partners are working together to develop a justice portfolio delivery plan. The purpose of that work is to bring greater coherence to reform activity across the portfolio, align action around shared outcomes, identify cross-system opportunities and provide a clearer basis for delivery, monitoring and future investment decisions.

I look forward to discussing those issues further with the committee.

That is absolutely correct.

Yes—I am agreeing with you. You are absolutely correct. The first step is to understand the scale of all this, which is the aim of the work that we have undertaken so far, and the next step is to understand how we can streamline those asks.

You are right that there is a conceptual issue. Silos in Government often feel that they need to be seen to be doing something different. You are absolutely right that, very often, it is better to just do more of the same and to do it consistently and effectively. It needs to be recognised that, because of the nature of the services that those organisations provide, they should be integrated and joined up and not made to fit into the specific silos of the funding mechanisms.

I recognise that that principle should inform the other work that we take forward. You are right that it will work better in some places than in others. Clearly, there is a wide range of activity right across all the portfolios in the public sector where that can apply. Some of that comes back to the culture, which is important when it comes to public sector leaders recognising the importance of the third sector. Some of it will come down to how we design services.

As we work our way through the landscape review and the understanding of what effective public services could and should look like in their structural design, streamlining things and ensuring that as many things as possible are integrated at local level is really important. That is where third sector organisations can often add significant value.