Chamber and committees

I do not recognise that.

I do not have the specifics on that aspect of the work. I think that I am right in saying that Ms Somerville is leading on it, but we will get back to the committee on that. However, your point about how the process operated during Covid is a good example of how, working with trusted organisations, we can deliver.

One of the fundamental challenges that we have lies in breaking out of the traditional siloed approach that has been taken. Money goes to portfolios, which then allocate it to third sector organisations through a plethora of schemes that are focused on what is important to that portfolio rather than what is important across the whole system. Tackling that part of the challenge requires us to do things very differently in how we allocate resources and monitor their use, but that is essential if we are to have a relationship that will allow the third sector to deliver effectively.

That goes back to the Christie commission principles of joining up services and focusing on prevention, as well as to the empowerment agenda, as a way of tackling the problem.

It is important to recognise that the problem that we are talking about exists on a very large scale, because it involves large organisations interacting with one another across a complex landscape. Therefore, it is not simply a challenge for the justice service; it goes much wider than that.

09:15

We need to understand what is driving what and the root causes of the mental health call-outs, so that we can then understand how to measure those, how to put resources in the right place to address the issues and how to monitor the improvements made as a consequence. We need to take a joined-up approach to tackle that, and that requires leadership to take a different approach by thinking outside silos and changing the culture so that money can flow through the system to enable that. It also requires a measurement system, so we are reformatting the national performance framework precisely to address those issues. That will be launched in the near future. We must focus on shifting the dial on those measures, as you have indicated, because that is how to get the right resources in the right places. It takes time to roll out that systemic approach.

The justice portfolio is not unique in that regard, because other portfolios have to address the consequences of things that happen elsewhere in the system. However, you are right that the justice service would probably have very little to do if we lived in a perfect world where everything could be prevented and you are right that it is important to do as much as possible upstream, in other areas, to address societal issues such as poverty, housing and health, because that would reduce the load on the justice system.

There are two parts to public service reform in justice. I have been working within the justice portfolio. There has been some great engagement with leaders in the justice system and a lot of good work has happened, is happening and is planned. It is hugely important to join up measures and to focus on the stuff that happens upstream in a way that will, as you say, reduce the demand on justice services.

I have visited the Wise Group, and its approach and the work that it does are commendable. It has an effective model for addressing that issue. It recognises many dimensions of the challenges that, unfortunately, can lead people to an interaction with the justice system, and it is able to unpick and address those.

The issue comes back to the fundamental point about not thinking or budgeting in silos and understanding that, within Government, the money needs to be joined up effectively on the ground, if I can put it that way, so that it addresses the systemic or holistic issue, where everything, or many things, are joined up and influence other parts of the system. It comes back to the point that we made about siloed funding and the fact that the way in which we have traditionally done things is not helpful in delivering solutions on the ground.

You are absolutely right. I have met Karyn on a number of occasions. She has done great work in the past and continues to do so.

That goes to the heart of the preventative agenda, because third sector organisations are often best placed to deliver on that agenda in a cost-effective way and are also often able to join up and integrate services in the way that the PSR work seeks to deliver. That is because they meet individuals and families to address their needs, instead of working on a siloed basis. Those organisations are an exemplar of what we want to roll out more extensively—

I will let Mr Gray talk about the specifics of the investment, but that is a good example on a number of levels, because it recognises that the service is changing. The representatives of the workforce are supportive of the initiative and are keen to drive it, and that talks to the important role of the empowerment agenda.

Is that question for me to answer?

In terms of year on year, and carrying forward—

I see that every week in my own constituency, where organisations are doing fabulous work.