Chamber and committees

My bill is not prescriptive on precisely how those figures would be reported. It is important to point out that collection would take place at local authority level. Local authorities would be required to provide those figures to Scottish ministers, and it would be up to Scottish ministers how the data would be provided.

Let us be clear about what the definitions would and would not do. It would not be appropriate to put that level of specificity in the bill. The definitions are there to provide a scope of behaviours within which we must have guidance, and it is for the guidance to provide such level of clarity about when seclusion is seclusion and when it is not.

Let us also be clear about what the definition specifies. Seclusion is about putting a child in a space that is separate from other children in such a way that they do not have the choice as to whether to stay in that space. The definition makes that relatively clear. It is not just about a child being brought to the front of a class or put to a corner; it is about separating them from other children and putting them in a separate room from which they cannot remove themselves. That may not be natural language, but it is pretty clear. As a matter of practice, the guidance needs to start zooming in and narrowing in not just on how a decision gets made but on what is the appropriate form of seclusion.

Let us also be clear that seclusion is quite serious. If any of us were to be placed in a room that we could not remove ourselves from and where we were separated from other people, it would be clear that that would be a deprivation of liberty. We know that that practice is going on. From the various reports that the various organisations have provided, we know that there are children who have found themselves, on more than one occasion, put in cupboards, and in such a way that they cannot remove themselves.

Does the wording in the bill provide absolute precision? No, it does not, nor should it. The definition is a matter for guidance, and I would absolutely expect there to be such guidance. However, what is specified in the bill is something that we would all agree is quite a serious situation.

I do. I note that it has now been more than a year since the guidance was issued. It is more than possible to consider its effect, but that guidance does not stand in isolation. It is not the case that there was no guidance before that guidance was issued; guidance was issued in 2011 and in 2017. The most critical point for me is that, although the guidance that you mentioned was issued only a year ago, we have been discussing this topic in the Parliament for more than a decade. If the current guidance has not been out for a sufficiently long enough time for us to contemplate its effect, that is a question for the Government rather than for me.

In 2019, a commitment was made to take urgent action and to provide written guidance. Five years ago, it was observed that it was likely that that guidance would need statutory underpinnings. We are now a whole parliamentary session on from that, so, if now is not the time to legislate, when will be? I am perhaps slightly forcing the pace, but I worry that, if I do not do that, nothing further will happen.

That is a pertinent question. In some ways, the issue relates to what I said to George Adam. If there was lots of detail in the bill, I might agree with some of those concerns, but there is not. The bill also does not specify a timeline for the Government to produce guidance; it states only that the Government must produce guidance and ensure that it is updated. It does not say anything about timing. It also does not preclude or pre-empt any reflections; it just requires the Government, as a matter of law, to undertake reflections.

Another key point relates to data. We still do not know the prevalence of some of what we are talking about. I apologise for restating this point, but we are talking about some of the most serious things that can occur in a school setting. Without consistent data, it is hard to have those reflections. As I said, the bill does not pre-empt any reflections. The guidance will be iterative—I do not believe that the guidance that will be produced will be immutable for ever—but we need data in order to have guidance that can be updated.

I believe that it should be reported on at local authority level, because reporting in more detail than that would be problematic for two reasons. First, we would not want school-by-school information, for exactly the reasons that have been outlined. Secondly, I hope that the numbers either would be or would become small. In that case, if we were to report at school level, we would run the risk of jigsaw identification. That would be a real concern, particularly in certain school settings with small numbers of children or young people attending. Reporting at local authority level would allow issues to be identified at that level, which would allow further questions to be asked by both ministers and parliamentarians.

It is important to acknowledge that the collection process would not provide the level of detail that would allow for league tables. It would be a matter for the Government to decide precisely how to report those figures.

I am sure that we will get into definitions. However, I note that the bill as it stands would enable the definitions to be elaborated on and thus more precision and categorisation of different types of intervention and the collection of such data. I am very open to tightening up the definitions, especially around the reporting requirements, to make that more precise.

Again, let us be really clear about what the bill will do: the definitions will not create any prohibitions or offences. There is nothing in the bill on individual teacher compliance; it will be for schools and local authorities to oversee. It is not the case that individual teachers will face those questions; the questions are for school leaders and local authorities.

Secondly—apologies if I am repeating myself—creating scope in a bill and providing further detail in guidance is a fairly typical way to legislate. My bill makes particular provision to allow those definitions to be elaborated. I know that there is concern about the use of the word “elaborate”, but let us be clear about what we are talking about: it is not about expanding on but about refining, specifying and clarifying. It is important that the guidance is clear because, ultimately, that is the appropriate place for practical advice so that teachers have clarity about what is appropriate or not.

To bring it back to the fundamentals, if force is being used by an individual against another individual that deprives them of their ability to act, that is serious and I think that there needs to be clarity about how and when that is permissible. All the bill does is state that the Government has to provide that clarity in guidance.

The point about de-escalation is interesting. I have seen all the written submissions that questioned why de-escalation did not specifically feature in the bill. However, it is absolutely embedded in the thinking behind the bill and informs its direction of travel. There is also the question of future-proofing the legislation, which I want to do. “De-escalation” is the current terminology, but it does not have a basis in law. Members are all familiar with the fact that terminology will probably have moved on in 10 years’ time.

To be clear, my focus is on physical intervention. The consequences of people getting it wrong when they use de-escalation techniques are of a different order of magnitude from those of getting it wrong when they use physical restraint. That is the target that I have in mind.

It boils down to the need for clarity. That suggestion works both ways, in that people not intervening when they should is not necessarily something that one would want, but neither is overuse of physical interventions. That is why it is really important, especially in the context of children with additional support needs, that those people who are likely to need to intervene absolutely have a level of training over and above what we might normally expect. However, we also need clarity about what is and is not appropriate. The danger lies where there is ambiguity.

I would expect nothing less of Mr Rennie.

That was very similar.