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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 26 December 2025
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Displaying 1194 contributions

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Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Digital Assets (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 December 2025

Daniel Johnson

Thank you. With that, I will bring in the deputy convener, Michelle Thomson.

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Digital Assets (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 December 2025

Daniel Johnson

Similarly, there is also the concept of immutability. We heard from Professor Fox that the bill may not require absolute immutability. In the most fundamental sense, we are talking about virtual things that exist as electrons in hard disk memory banks and in a distributed way, so they are not, therefore, in an absolute sense, immutable at all.

Is it problematic that we are talking about hard immutability, either physically or conceptually? Professor Fox said that absolute immutability may not be required—as a practical approach, if these things are operating as they should be, they are unchangeable. Is the problem that there is a fuzzy margin in the concept of immutability with regard to the bill?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Digital Assets (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 December 2025

Daniel Johnson

Thank you very much, minister. What are your and your team’s reflections on that evidence? To summarise the evidence, there has been broad agreement that we must incorporate digital assets into Scots law. The framing of the bill has received broad support, but there have been questions, in broad terms, about the clarity, and what may or may not be captured at the margins, of the definitions. I note that that is not necessarily a universal view.

Those are some of the points that have been raised. What are your broad reflections on the evidence that the committee has heard?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Digital Assets (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 December 2025

Daniel Johnson

I will probe some of those points, especially around the fundamental definitions. The bill is framed in terms of things that arise from electronic systems that are “rivalrous” and “immutable”. The legal witnesses said that those last two concepts were clear but that they are not long-standing features of Scots law.

When I look at how other jurisdictions have sought to capture similar concepts, I see that they have gone about it in a slightly different way. That is notwithstanding the other elements, which are part of the wider scope of that legislation. Just in terms of the narrow definitions, the Australian bill, for example—the Corporations Amendment (Digital Assets Framework) Bill 2025—talks about

“an electronic record that one or more persons are capable of factually controlling”.

The bill goes on to describe that “factually controlling” an electronic record means that those people, either solely or jointly, are capable of transferring the electronic record. That captures a similar concept to rivalrousness, but it perhaps does so in plainer language.

Is there a potential issue in relation to using concepts such as rivalrousness and immutability, which are maybe less clear in terms of everyday speech, even if legal experts would claim that they are clear—especially if those terms are novel in Scots law?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Digital Assets (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 December 2025

Daniel Johnson

Great. I have a final question. We have heard that law reform is urgently needed in other areas of Scots law, such as private international law and debt enforcement, to accommodate digital assets. That stands to reason. We might be talking about two people who are resident in Scotland exchanging an asset or being in dispute, but they are just as likely to be in different jurisdictions.

Private international law in and of itself might be at the frontiers of what we need to establish, but could the minister outline what the Government is thinking about how that work might be taken forward and what consideration is being given to it?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Digital Assets (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 December 2025

Daniel Johnson

Was there a particular reason why it was more appropriate to use the terms in the bill, as opposed to language similar to that used in the Australian bill? Was there a specific reason why Scots law needed those discrete terms rather than a broader description of what rivalrousness or exclusive control might look like?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Digital Assets (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 December 2025

Daniel Johnson

Minister, Emma Phillips wants to come in. Would you like to bring her in?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Digital Assets (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 December 2025

Daniel Johnson

I think that Greg McLardie was also hoping to come in.

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Digital Assets (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 December 2025

Daniel Johnson

Professor Schafer, for the sake of completeness, have you any thoughts on the things that we might be capturing inadvertently? What safeguards might we need to guard against that?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Digital Assets (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 December 2025

Daniel Johnson

Right at the beginning, you hit on something that caused me concern. If someone creates a document that has some sort of version control mechanism that shows whose hands it has passed through, are they inadvertently creating something that will be captured by the bill? I am just checking that we are in the same terrain.