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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 1662 contributions

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Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

I think that it can, but I will leave it there.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

I will bring in Adam Stachura, then Jonnie Hall. Are there broad things that you would like to be implemented to improve scrutiny and the process for secondary legislation in Parliament, particularly in relation to consultation or even an ability to amend secondary legislation?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

The classic example is changing a price that is specified, because prices have to keep pace with inflation. You do not want to go through the primary legislation process every time you do that.

Within the parameters that you were setting out in relation to the agricultural support legislation—the Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Act 2024—do you think that, to safeguard future Administrations in future sessions, such powers need to be accompanied by corresponding duties on ministers to have regard to particular purposes or outcomes? You might not be specifying what happens in minute detail, but you would at least be establishing and framing what things ministers should be having due regard to or seeking to achieve through the use of the powers, if they are broadly stated.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

Thank you: that was a really helpful addition.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

It is just my opinion. I am sure that my colleagues scowled when I said that.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

The convener has asked me to stop there, so I will.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

Is that not a problem?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

I will push Jonnie Hall and Lloyd Austin on a couple of the points that they raised.

I understand the point about flexibility, but you have discussed the need for consultation and scrutiny. When powers are delivered through secondary legislation, there is actually less of a requirement. Parliament has very clear rules: our three-stage process is clearly laid out and is open, allowing people make submissions. However, there is no pre-configured format for what consultation the Government might require for legislation—sometimes, it is not specified at all. If you want scrutiny and consultation, would you not be better off with primary legislation?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

You mentioned guidance and parliamentary scrutiny, earlier. Bills might specify that guidance needs to be laid before Parliament but, in essence, that is a notice period before the guidance is introduced. That process does not actually require any input, and there is no ability for Parliament to amend or update the guidance, although committees could take evidence, if they want to. Are you suggesting that some thought should be given to a parliamentary role in relation to guidance, particularly when it relates to a substantial matter?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

Rosemary Agnew, I was interested in some of your previous answers. What you said was similar to some things that were said last week about there not necessarily being a hard and fast distinction between framework bills and non-framework bills, and the idea that the issue is more about how powers that are delivered through secondary legislation are framed and structured. You can have very broad and open powers and other powers that are very well specified. The broad parameters are set, but the issue is the detail or the levels that are left to secondary legislation.

Does that need to be an area of greater focus, so that we have models for framing secondary powers? Most legislation will involve some secondary powers—it is very rare for legislation to have none. Are you suggesting that we think about how secondary powers are framed and structured, rather than focus purely on whether a bill is a framework bill or not?