Chamber and committees

Absolutely. I appreciate that. We will go into more detail on that in discussing the next grouping, and I hope that what I set out will address many of the concerns that committee members and stakeholders have raised. We want to make sure that we look at that holistically and that whatever measures we introduce in that regard are introduced at the right place in the bill process, which I believe is at stage 3.

Convener, I ask you to allow me to finish the rest of my points, which set out the rationale for the approach that we have taken and how we want to work with members on the amendments that they have lodged in order to find a way forward.

I do not think that it is fair to look at the overall timescales. We introduced the bill on the back of the consultation that we undertook, and we are trying to provide a bit more certainty over the period. It should be recognised that we have introduced a framework bill. As I have said previously, it is important to remember that we are talking about the foundation of our approach to developing future policy. As I outlined in relation to what the first plan might look like, we are going through a transition, and we are trying to develop policy with our farmers and crofters. I commit to working with members around the table so that we can get the plan into a shape that, I hope, will allow everybody to come together to support it.

I return to my comments. It is key that we manage the transition through the first rural support plan and that we take farmers and crofters with us without creating unnecessary stress or dislocation. We need to ensure that, when we set up the requirements for the scrutiny, content and role of the plan, the plan is able to function now, with what we have, and will be able to function in the future with what we are co-developing.

I ask members not to move amendments 114 to 116, 38, 40 and 128. In return, I commit to taking every proposed amendment away for consideration and to engaging collaboratively with members of Parliament and stakeholders. I want to come back at stage 3 with a robust set of amendments that cover the rural support plan and our approach to monitoring and evaluation, thereby providing a wraparound approach to the issues that have been raised in this group.

Again, I ask Rachael Hamilton to allow me to get back to my comments so that I can set out what will be included.

We have had a number of conversations with stakeholders, and there has been the information that the committee has received. We are all pushing in the same direction in relation to what we want to achieve, so I hope that we can work constructively to achieve that.

Again, coming back to my comments and what I am committing to do and the issues that we will cover in relation to the rural support plan, it will cover our strategic priorities for providing support and the outcomes that we expect it to deliver. That will be important in setting the scene for a reporting period and giving everyone a clear understanding of what we are doing, why we are doing it and what we are seeking to achieve from the activity and support.

I expect the UK Government to at least engage in a conversation with us, so that we know what kind of allocation there will be and we can have a dialogue about what that budget might look like. That engagement was promised as part of the Bew review, but that conversation, despite our pursuing it, has never taken place.

I am sorry, but I do not understand the point that you are trying to make.

The UK Government was able to do so previously, so I do not understand why it is not able to do so now and why it cannot engage in conversation with us about what future allocations might look like.

It is important to be clear that we get the confirmation of a budget only on an annual basis from the UK Government. We get an indicative allocation, which is confirmed on an annual basis, so that could fluctuate from year to year.

As I have outlined, we want to work in that space and be as helpful as possible within the limitations that we have, but we are within severe limitations when it comes to making commitments on multi-annual frameworks and funding going forward.

As I have already outlined, I want to look at what we are able to do in that space. We want to provide as much certainty and clarity to people as we can. I recognise how important that is for future planning for our farmers and crofters, but I cannot commit to something that I am not able to deliver. Based on the comments that I have already outlined in relation to the rural support plan, that is an area that I want to consider.

I would like to continue and to make progress on the other amendments.

I am conscious that we have covered a lot already, but there are still a number of areas to get through.

On amendment 114, although evaluation of programmes is our standard approach—our ex post evaluation of programmes under the EU CAP is currently under way—it is important that we do not restrict the timescale or the method for, or the publication of, evaluations. There will be some things that can be reliably reported on within a planned period, but others will require more by way of longitudinal research.

We need to ensure that our monitoring and evaluation of plans, outcomes and the overall framework are robust. Our rural and environment science and analytical services division—RESAS—is preparing an agricultural reform programme monitoring and evaluation framework. It is important that we are clear about what can be reliably delivered and evidenced within planned periods and what might require a longer timeframe.

Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 114 presupposes that each plan will directly replicate what was in the previous plan. However, as we know, schemes and support will—we would hope—change over time, so that could turn out to be a meaningless exercise, which would require to be carried out simply because there was a statutory requirement to carry out evaluations. For those reasons, I ask Rachael Hamilton not to move amendment 114, so that I can return at stage 3 to provide more detail on what can usefully be included in the bill that can be achieved in this area. If the amendment is moved, I urge members not to support it.

I think that Colin Smyth’s amendment 32 is unnecessary, as it asks for the provision of baseline financial and funding information that is already available every year through the budget process. I am happy to send on the links to the level 4 budgets for the current year to reassure him that that information is already publicly available. That being the case, I hope that he will not move amendment 32.

I have some sympathy with elements of Colin Smyth’s amendment 115, and I understand what he is trying to achieve. As I set out in my introductory remarks on the group, the purpose of the rural support plan is to offer clarity and certainty as to how the powers that are sought in the bill are to be used. I ask members to allow me to return at stage 3 with a more holistic and—crucially—workable wraparound that sets out clearly how ministers will cover the detail of the plan. That will include consideration of the requirements that are listed in amendment 115. On that basis, I ask Colin Smyth not to move amendment 115. If he moves it, I urge members not to support it.

The same applies to Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 116. In particular, I would very much like to be able to set out the sources of funding, but, as I have already outlined, until the UK Government engages in discussions on future budgets, it will continue to cause uncertainty.

On amendment 117, I reassure Rachael Hamilton and others that I fully intend to ensure that we have a scheme that effectively supports new and young entrants to farming. However, it would not be appropriate to provide for that in the way that is proposed in what we have agreed should be a framework bill. That aspect will feature in one of the tiers that will be co-developed with key stakeholders, which will, of course, be subject to regulations that Parliament will have an opportunity to scrutinise. I hope that that reassures Rachael Hamilton and that she will not move amendment 117.

I understand the intent behind Beatrice Wishart’s amendment 118, and I hope that I can reassure her that it is not needed, given the significant amount of engagement and consultation that the Scottish Government already undertakes on a wide range of matters that will form the new framework and tiers. We have a long-standing commitment to co-development with rural partners, and we continue to engage closely with them. The agricultural reform programme is responsible for managing the co-development process from design through to delivery and for ensuring that that process is communicated through the route map. That approach is rooted in the Scottish approach to service design, whereby we actively work with our farmers, crofters and land managers to develop and test our future framework.

The detail of changes, including the detail of new schemes in the different tiers, will be provided for in secondary legislation, using the powers that are proposed the bill. That will involve further consultation through the associated impact assessments, along with parliamentary scrutiny. As I have made clear, our approach is always to co-develop with our industry and wider partners to ensure that legislation and regulation are best fitted to work and deliver to outcomes. I have already committed to reporting on how we do that, with whom and to what effect in the rural support plan. I hope that that reassures Beatrice Wishart that there is no need to create a statutory consultation period of the kind that she has set out and that she will not move amendment 118. If she moves it, I ask members not to support it.

Alasdair Allan’s amendment 119 helpfully identifies an issue that applies right across the bill and across all the groupings. We have a range of existing commitments to consult on proposed changes, which are, I think, inconsistent in their framing, particularly in relation to whom should be consulted with. That is why I propose again that, ahead of stage 3, Government officials will review all the current and proposed additional consultation requirements, to ensure that they are appropriate and proportionate, that we consult where it is necessary or most useful, and that there is consistency in the framing where that is important. Accordingly, I ask Alasdair Allan not to move his amendment 119, to allow that to happen.

I am more than happy to follow up with the committee afterwards. However, in relation to discussing and taking forward the amendments, the approach that the committee is outlining would be quite unorthodox. I want to work with different members and consider their amendments in order to achieve all that I have outlined.

We are taking forward work on the good food nation plan, and I know that the committee will have a role in scrutinising that. The consultation on the plan closed last month. We were keen to engage widely, and we hope that what we have set out in the plan will achieve our overall objectives and our vision for a good food nation. I am happy to continue to engage with Rhoda Grant and other members around the table with an interest in the matter. I want to ensure that the good food nation plan is as strong as possible, and I recognise that it will, of course, evolve over time.

Elena Whitham’s amendment 22 seeks to provide for animal health and welfare to be included in the objectives, and Colin Smyth’s amendment 3 seeks to provide for animal welfare to be included. That emphasises a strand that runs from Scotland’s long-established history of having good-quality livestock to our recent agricultural vision, and that strand will continue into the code for sustainable and regenerative agriculture. At stage 1, we heard a lot from stakeholders about how important that is and that we should state that as an objective of agricultural policy in Scotland. I think that Elena Whitham’s amendment 22 is preferable to Colin Smyth’s amendment 3, so I ask the committee to reject amendment 3 and accept amendment 22.

I agree whole-heartedly with the intention behind Ariane Burgess’s amendment 23. I want to include in the new tier framework schemes that will help us to deliver that intention in a way that is consistent with the high-level objectives in section 1. However, the amendment relates to a specific aim rather than a high-level objective, so it would be inappropriate to include in the bill what is proposed in the amendment. Moreover, enabling what I have set out could, arguably, be a key way of delivering objective 4, which is

“enabling rural communities to thrive.”

I hope that that reassures Ariane Burgess and that she will not move amendment 23. However, if she does, I ask the committee not to support it.

Ariane Burgess has also lodged amendments 24 and 25. Section 1 of the bill sets out the key objectives for agricultural policy, and the third objective refers specifically to “on-farm” support. I am not sure where agricultural policy and those objectives would be delivered other than on farms. The objectives seek to intrinsically link agricultural policy and food production, with there also being the need for

“on-farm nature restoration, climate mitigation and adaptation”.

The bill does enable a much wider range of support, but section 1 is focused on agriculture and is not the place for any wider objectives. It should be remembered that the bill is primarily to support agricultural producers who then might wish to take up climate and nature measures. Widening the bill’s scope by removing the term “on-farm” risks dilution of support for farmers and does not recognise that other support is available outwith agricultural support. For example, we have the nature restoration fund. I therefore ask the committee to reject amendment 24.

On amendment 25, the bill already includes powers that enable farmers, crofters and land managers to collaborate between farms and at landscape scale if they wish to do. That includes funding for third-party support to deliver grants and support to enable such collaborations to occur. I therefore ask the committee not to support amendment 25.

Colin Smyth’s amendments 98, 99, 100, 104 and 105 remove the current objective for nature restoration and climate and replace it with a range of new separate objectives, as well as additional detail. Much consideration has gone into ensuring that the wording in the bill and in the objectives reflects terms with common meaning that can be articulated to the vision. The four objectives are not listed in order of priority, but it is important to note that, by their very nature, they are high-level and wide-ranging and are aimed at supporting the others. On-farm nature restoration, climate mitigation and adaptation are clearly covered by the current objectives, so I struggle to see what value there would be in separating them into individual objectives, as has been proposed by Colin Smyth’s amendments 98, 99 and 100.

His amendments 100 and 105 propose inserting the term “natural heritage”. I want to be clear that enhancing our nation’s natural heritage is something that we all subscribe to, but that term has contested understandings and using it might narrow the scope of intent of the existing objective. On-farm nature restoration is already suitably and clearly covered by the objectives in the bill as it is drafted, so I struggle to see what replacing it with a specific nature objective would achieve.

Amendment 104 seeks to reintroduce an objective on climate mitigation and adaptation. Those are already suitably and clearly covered by the objectives in the bill and we are already bound by the requirements of the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009, so I struggle to see what value that amendment offers. For those reasons, I ask the committee not to support that group of amendments.

Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 101 looks to alter the text of the objective in section 1(d):

“enabling rural communities to thrive.”

The amendment proposes adding reference to farmers as part of that objective. The amendment reflects the vital importance of farmers to our rural communities and I fully recognise the key role that farmers play in supporting the socioeconomic vitality of rural areas. However, farmers are an integral part of our rural communities and I do not think that they should be viewed as separate to that and to the communities where they live and work. That is why I think that Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 101 is unnecessary and I ask the committee not to support it.