Chamber and committees

I was feeling inspired listening to my colleague Bob Doris. Given that there are real challenges around public finances and we know that investment is crucial but that being able to unlock it is not easy, are you and your colleagues having discussions with colleagues elsewhere? It is not just about what we talk about in the Parliament. Can we learn from what is happening in, for example, Greater Manchester and the work that is being led by Andy Burnham that is a result of lots of campaigning and cross-party working? Are you building that into your fact finding?

I have, but it has been worth it, because the evidence has been fascinating. Thank you to Chris Stark and Professor Bell for your really clear evidence and answers today.

I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests—I am a member of two trade unions, Unite the union and GMB—because I am going to ask about a just transition and the green economy.

I am keen to get your views on the efforts and progress that the Government has made towards its commitment on a just transition. We have heard a lot today about the energy sector and agriculture, so it might be good to start with those sectors.

It is important that workers and communities have confidence that climate action and net zero will benefit them and not punish them, but the announcement last week will perhaps leave people feeling more anxious. I am keen to get the Climate Change Committee’s view.

You said that the change has been slow. Earlier, we heard about the letter that Lord Deben sent to Roseanna Cunningham, when she was Cabinet Secretary for Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform in 2020, in the previous parliamentary session. One of the recommendations was about the early decarbonisation of the Grangemouth industrial complex, which is in my region, but is of national strategic importance. Was that advice not taken by the Scottish Government? Do you think that it is listening to advice when it gets it?

So, big lessons to be learned there.

Your report mentions that the just transition commission has raised concerns about the minimal engagement of workers, the community and Government that took place around the Petroineos announcement. The commission has also emphasised the difference between investment in net zero and investment in a just transition. Do you think that the Scottish Government sufficiently understands that distinction?

I agree that, if we get that, it is win-win-win across the board.

On a more specific point, you will be aware that the Scottish Government announced around £100 million for the green hydrogen sector and then some of that money was shifted towards the offshore wind supply chain, and the former Cabinet Secretary for Wellbeing Economy, Fair Work and Energy, Neil Gray, gave his reasons for that. Is it right for the Scottish Government to prioritise support for the offshore wind sector ahead of the potential development of a green hydrogen sector, and where do you think are the best opportunities for economic growth in green industries in Scotland?

That was helpful; thank you.

I need to move on to a question on governance. I am keen to hear how well you think the Government is set up to deliver on its climate policy goals and whether there is anything that should be done differently.

I am mindful of the Auditor General’s report of April last year, “How the Scottish Government is set up to deliver climate change goals”, which is all about governance and risk management arrangements. Chris Stark, in particular, will know the Scottish Government well from his previous roles. Is it a matter of concern that there was no permanent director general for net zero until January last year? We came back to Parliament after the election in May 2021, but no permanent DG for net zero was put in place at the time, and we have had a few years in which that portfolio area has not had a workforce plan. Have some time and some important opportunities been wasted in that period?

I make it clear that I was not picking out one individual. I would just note that in the two key messages in its report, Audit Scotland says:

“The lack of frequent and consistent reporting, alongside gaps in performance monitoring, make it difficult to gain assurance of overall progress.”

It also highlights the lack of a workforce plan and points out that

“Systematic risk management is needed so the Scottish Government can identify the key risks to meeting its climate change goals and take effective action to address them.”

Given what happened last week, people might think that that factor contributed to the situation. Just to give a more balanced view, though, I should say that Audit Scotland told the committee fairly recently that it is happier now.

However, do we need to look back at that period? Is a lesson that we need to learn that we must ensure that local government, other public bodies and everyone else gets their house in order, so that we can have the proper governance that we need?

Thank you. I will hand back to the convener, for the purposes of time.

I do not want to lower the mood, as you were trying to take us to quite a positive place—you will be missed in your role. You opened the evidence session by describing the dangerous moment in which we find ourselves. Last week, we heard reactions from charities and veteran climate campaigners about scrapping the 2030 climate targets. We heard from Oxfam that it is a “global embarrassment.” We heard from Friends of the Earth Scotland that it was

“the worst environmental decision in the history of the Scottish Parliament”.

People who know the climate science, the importance of getting things right, the opportunities and the prize that awaits us are not taking it well, and they are certainly not exaggerating.

You have spoken about a climate act that is in danger of being an empty vessel. There are blank pages where we should have good, bold policies. The Scottish Government has had 15 years to deliver transformative action. How do we get things back on track if it looks like there has been a real lack of political courage? There will be a lot of debate and discussion during the rest of the parliamentary session, there is a motion of no confidence and the Bute house agreement is in jeopardy. How do politicians find the courage here? What advice can you give to Government and Parliament?

You made an important comment about the fact that net zero should not be siloed. With regard to the Scottish Government, has that been part of the problem?