Chamber and committees

Thank you, convener. I am grateful to have the opportunity to be here in support of Karen McKeown, the petitioner. As everyone knows, Karen’s partner, Luke Henderson, died by suicide in December 2017, so this is a difficult time for her, her children and the wider family.

We meet at a time that can be difficult for many of our constituents. Many of us welcomed the opportunity to take part in a debate in Parliament on male suicide. That debate will now have to wait until the new year but the issues are of concern to all of us.

I am grateful to the committee because the session with the cabinet secretary and his officials has been great in the sense that he is not trying to put any spin on the matter. I know that he is sincere about the challenges. It was reassuring that, at the beginning, he said that, although there might be a different outlook about the process for getting there, he, the Government and Karen McKeown want the same thing.

To be frank, one suicide is one too many. We can examine the numbers and data, which is important—targets have a role to play because we have to monitor progress—but we are all here because we want to save lives.

Committee members have asked pertinent questions, including about the wider impact on families and communities. I have been scribbling some notes. We are rightly focused on what happens within the NHS—primary care, access to general practitioners, NHS 24, mental health harms and so on—but there is a wider piece of work to do. Therefore, it is good that the committee has kept the petition open.

I have made notes about employers and education because we all have to become more literate about mental health. To be frank, I struggle to signpost constituents to the right place as a regional MSP working across two different health boards and three different local authorities. Pilot schemes are welcome, but it can be difficult to know what the pathway is. All the MSPs sitting in this committee room might have different systems and procedures to which to point people.

Karen’s partner Luke had a history of mental illness. She has highlighted the point that she and Luke knew how to ask for help, so they did the right things. They reached out many times and still could not get the help that they needed. I welcome the work that is in the pipeline for next year and do not doubt the good intentions of the cabinet secretary and the Government but we have serious problems with resourcing and workforce, of which the committee is well aware.

I want to pay tribute to the workforce because what I am seeing increasingly is a workforce that is struggling, and that is having an impact on their mental health and wellbeing. We have to be honest about that.

The cabinet secretary is absolutely right and it is good to hear that he can take a wider view because of his background in justice and so on. Karen McKeown and I met the former Minister for Mental Health, Sport and Wellbeing after I raised this tragic case with the First Minister a number of years ago, and we talked about some of the issues that Paul Sweeney has gone into today, such as drug disorders and alcohol. We have not talked about alcohol but it is a big issue. Clare Haughey, who was the minister at the time and had been a mental health professional, told us that the strand of work was for her public health colleague and she was the mental health minister. We must get away from that siloed thinking, and we are seeing some progress on that.

The petition is so important because the constructive challenge needs to continue, and I am sure that the cabinet secretary would welcome that. We do not yet have answers about resourcing and how we are going to deliver on the good intentions. That is what Karen McKeown talks about in the petition. Without going into detail about individual constituents and others in different parts of Scotland, I know people who, this week, phoned their general practitioner to try to get an appointment to discuss their mental health and the fact that they are struggling dozens of times, even over a hundred times, in two days. Colleagues have previously raised that issue with the cabinet secretary in the chamber and it is the reality. How do we close the gap between what we want people to think is on offer for them to have hope and know that they are not alone and the reality of the waiting times that some people experience? I have lots of statistics here about people in Lanarkshire, for example, who are waiting for several months, if not years, for psychological therapy. We need to go into granular detail about how we are going to do that.

Again, like everyone else, I pay tribute to Karen McKeown. I know that she is listening today because I am looking at my phone and I see that she has been messaging me. This is a difficult time for families with lived experience, but I hope that they know that we, as a Parliament, are taking the issue seriously.

Thank you. That is helpful. As the convener explained, we will go into those subject areas.

I will pick up on transport. You will be aware that, pre-pandemic, in Scotland our annual car kilometres were increasing. We have a target of 20 per cent reduction in car demand, but the Climate Change Committee is very clear that there needs to be a paradigm shift if we are to achieve that. I note that in the recommendations in your report you link the target with Scottish Government documents on the national planning framework and the strategic transport projects review. You are clearly looking for more alignment with other strategies and programmes.

What policies does the Climate Change Committee think that the Scottish Government needs to use to support alternatives to car use and to discourage car use? We still have a long way to go to get that modal shift to sustainable public transport and active travel. I know that you do not want to make policy recommendations to the Government, but it feels as though we are lacking in courage, both in the Government and in Parliament, to make some of those tough decisions. It will not all be popular. If you give us a steer on some of the carrots and sticks that could be considered, that would be helpful.

Can we stick with buses? You have made me think about our local situation in Hamilton, where the express bus service into the centre of Glasgow, which was really popular with students going to university or college, for example, was taken away during the pandemic and we do not have it back yet. In debates on this topic in the chamber, colleagues have talked about public transport deserts in their communities, and it can be very challenging in rural areas. It is great that more people have access to free bus passes, but if they do not have services, that is pretty useless.

Given the target to reduce car kilometres by 20 per cent by the end of the decade, do we need to see more action in that space, with bus services and integrated public transport that actually work for people’s real lives and timetables, whether they involve university, education, work, hospital appointments, socialising, shopping or whatever? A lot of people say that it is frustrating and difficult to get around, which is why they cannot give up using a private car.

What more could be done to resource public transport? The report from your committee talks about continuing the Covid-19 pandemic support for operators and local transport authorities. What is missing in that space, Professor Bell?

I think that we want to explore today how we can get away from what has been described as magical thinking and get meaningful targets that people believe can be achieved. As the convener explained, we will come back to transport, buildings, and land and agriculture.

Mark Ruskell asked about the budget. What more could be done in that regard to support emission reduction goals? I am thinking about options around non-domestic rates, land and buildings transaction tax and council tax. You may be aware of some reports that have been published in Scotland in recent months, including the Scottish Trades Union Congress report on options for increasing tax in Scotland to fund investment in public services. That includes proposals on a frequent flyer levy and a carbon emissions tax, which are also supported by the John Muir Trust.

We also have the Stop Climate Chaos Scotland report “Financing Climate Justice: Fiscal Measures for Climate Action in a time of crisis” and “A Vision for Scotland’s Railways”, which was published last year and which talks about a wealth tax to fund publicly owned public transport and green bonds that could be issued by the Scottish Government and local authorities.

Do panel members have views on the role that those reports and recommendations could play in helping to achieve what we want to achieve in Scotland?

Professor Bell might be best placed to answer my question about the forthcoming circular economy bill. I know that your recommendations covered that. What could the committee expect to see in a Scottish Government bill on the circular economy?

I am sorry to interrupt, but you mentioned the public sector. What specifically could the public sector do in this space? The report from Circularity Scotland says that Scotland’s economy is only 1.3 per cent circular. You talked about people recycling more, but we also need to consume less in the first place. What levers could the public sector use? Is it about procurement or something else?

Good morning to the panel. I hope that you feel better soon, Lord Deben, and best wishes to Chris Stark as well. It is a shame that he was not able to join the panel today. I listened to the webinar last week when your report was launched and, like many others, I was worried by what we heard. However, today we want to focus on what can be done and what tools the Scottish Government and partners are not currently using that they could use.

What specific policy options that are available to the Scottish Government does the Climate Change Committee feel are currently being underutilised or are poorly aligned with supporting the achievement of Scotland’s decarbonisation targets?

Of course.

Good morning. It is lovely to be back at this award-winning committee. That is me trying to get in with you all.

I was listening patiently at the back of the room. I was in West Lothian, which is not my region, at an event where Callum Isted was mentioned. He is a superstar with lots of fans, so I wish the committee well with your endeavours on his petition.

I wanted to come along to support George Eckton’s petition because the issues that he has raised are of no surprise to me or my staff, given the emails that we get. Even before the pandemic, people would get in touch out of frustration about the price of rail travel and the reliability of services at times.

I have taken on the role of patron of Disability Equality Scotland, which has helped me to appreciate even more the points that Mr Eckton has made about the ease of getting information. I commend him for the efforts that he has made. I have looked at the correspondence between him and the Advertising Standards Authority. It should not be so difficult to get cheap fare information. The issue of access to staff and ticket offices is really important, too.

This issue has been of interest to me since before the pandemic, especially in the context of the climate emergency, because we need a modal shift to get people on to Scotland’s sustainable rail network. We can do that only if the public have confidence in and can afford to use our rail services.

I know that your predecessor committee looked at a previous petition that was lodged by Mr Eckton. The petition was closed on the basis that the Scottish Government had given undertakings, but, from reading the petitioner’s submissions, it looks as though they have not been fulfilled.

Colleagues might know that I am a member of the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee. I do not speak on behalf of the committee today, but I note that we have had the chance to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Net Zero, Energy and Transport and his officials about the fair fares review. It is frustrating that we do not have a clearer timeline for its completion. It was indicated that it will be “early 2023”, but, from my experience in the Parliament, that could become the summer, and then summer could become winter or Christmas. We need certainty, which is why I feel that, although the fair fares review is looking at wider issues, Mr Eckton’s petition should be considered and should inform that work.

This meeting is timely. I was looking at today’s newspapers, in which there are reports that ScotRail’s commuter numbers are down by 40 per cent, which means that revenue is down—it looks as though it is down by around 20 per cent on pre-pandemic figures—so making people feel confident about the service is a big issue. Part of the explanation for commuter numbers being down is that people who have the option to work from home are choosing to do so. However, many workers are taking into account the cost of getting to work and getting around, so, if they have the choice, many are saying that they will work at home and that they will not go to the office.

I am concerned for those constituents who, due to medical appointments or other issues, cannot be flexible about when they travel and are therefore not getting access to the most affordable fares. We should be abolishing peak-time fares—that should be looked at in the fair fares review.

As I said, I cannot speak for the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee, but, in his petition, Mr Eckton is clearly raising matters that are of interest to that committee. I note what Transport Scotland has said, and I note the information that has come from Transport for London—it was very helpful that Paul Sweeney prompted it to send that.

It is important to look at good and other practice where we can, but it is also really key for Mr Eckton’s aspirations that we have a rail service in Scotland that is properly staffed. If committee members are not aware of it, I point them to the document, “A Vision for Scotland’s Railways”, which was prepared by Scotland’s four rail unions and published in October 2021.

In Parliament, we often talk about challenges instead of solutions. That document has lots of good policy in it and, to be fair to the Scottish Government, some of it has already been actioned. It is important to look at the document, because, to achieve the sustainable rail network that we want to see, the executive summary says that we should

“Reduce ticket prices, abolish peak fares and simplify the ticketing system”.

My understanding is that the Scottish Government has not formally responded to that document from the four rail unions. I declare an interest in that I am a member of Unite the union and the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers parliamentary group. It is a good document that has cross-party support.

I am really pleased to have the chance to speak in favour of the petition, and I will be happy to answer questions. I hope that it is an issue that can be kept open and explored by colleagues across the Parliament and the Government.