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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Yes. I understand that you are not in breach of the TUPE regulations. You could continue to pay the staff at the Serco rates and employ them on the Serco terms and conditions. Our point of interest here is that, given that these are the people who make the prison work or not work so how they are treated is quite important, there are questions about how that is working and whether it could be done in a different way. Could it be done in a more accelerated way, given that we understand that there are some issues around capacity?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. I am going to bring in other members of the committee. I will bring in Jamie Greene, and Graham Simpson may also have a question on the subject.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. I call Mr Simpson.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

On 1 December, not by 1 December.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. I bring in the deputy convener.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Do you know how many of those contracts that are coming to an end between now and 2030 involve some kind of costs? Kerry Alexander might be able to help with that.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. The BBC carried a story with the headline “PFI ‘buy back’ deals to cost taxpayer millions”. I do not know about the figure of millions of pounds, but it referred to 11 PFI contracts. However, you think that the figure is nine. Can you comment on that?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

As you have mentioned East Ayrshire, I am bound to go into the broader issue of the East Ayrshire community hospital. The then First Minister Nicola Sturgeon announced that that hospital was going to be taken back into NHS Ayrshire and Arran earlier than the time scheduled in the PFI contract, and I think there has been an estimate of the additional cost. If that issue fell to your department, Mr Rennick, would there not have to be a conversation between the minister—in that case, the First Minister—and you as the accountable officer as to whether that was the right decision?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

There was an announcement recently about Falkirk schools, presumably by Falkirk Council. Is that a proposal to bring them in house earlier than the expiry date of the PFI?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Again, I am struggling to understand under what circumstances the public sector would walk away from a lease. If you have a hospital that is 25 years old, you will not abandon it, presumably. I suppose that there may be circumstances where you might do that, but it is highly unlikely, is it not? In comparative terms, it will still be a relatively new piece of infrastructure that is running as part of the health service. I am struggling to understand why, under those circumstances, walking away would be considered an option and, therefore, why there is this exit fee premium to be paid.