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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

The deputy convener has questions on a number of areas.

10:00  

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

You mentioned general levels of inflation, which have been high in the past couple of years, although they have come down a bit more recently. However, we are talking about an increase of 400 per cent, and more, in the expected cost of the construction of seven of those national treatment centres, are we not?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

We have the chief executive of NHS Scotland coming before the committee before we break for summer recess, so we could consider the issue then.

My parting question is around lessons learned. Teresa Medhurst, I know that you and your colleagues are still in the middle of the transition but, even at this early stage, do you think that there are things that you might have done differently? Lorraine Roughan, when you go to Kerry Alexander’s collaborative workshops and share your experience, what are the dos and don’ts that you would take to that kind of get together?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

That is very insightful. Does anyone else want to come in with lessons learned, or things that we can do in relation to future examples of PFI expiries?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

We are in the middle of a general election campaign, Mr Reekie, so who knows what the future might hold.

I thank our witnesses this morning for their input. It has been very useful to us and the committee will have a continuing interest in this area, so I thank you for giving us some of those introductory lessons. We may go on to future phases of analysis and audit in the area, and I am sure that the Auditor General will be taking some notes from this morning’s session, too.

I now move the meeting into private session.

10:40 Meeting continued in private until 11:11.  

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

My final question is for Mr Rennick. Looking at the scale of all this, I think that the total value of these contracts is £9 billion and that around half of that is in schools, is it not, which is your responsibility?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Do you have any sense of when demand will be greatest on the capacity of that part of the public sector that you have oversight of?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. One of the other variables on these contracts is that some have so-called secondary periods, which is, as I understand it, an extension of the PFI contract. Can you tell us what your understanding is of how many of those are in the system or we are likely to face between, for example, now and 2030?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Our major item for consideration this morning is a look into how expiring private finance initiative contracts are dealt with, which is something that the committee has delved into over the past few months. I am very pleased that we have a line-up of people who will, I hope, shed some light on that process, how it is working and how it might work in the future.

I am very pleased to welcome Neil Rennick, the director general for education and justice in the Scottish Government; Peter Reekie, the chief executive of the Scottish Futures Trust; Kerry Alexander, the director of infrastructure, finance and programmes at the Scottish Futures Trust; Teresa Medhurst, the chief executive of the Scottish Prison Service; Lorraine Roughan, the project executive for His Majesty’s Prison Kilmarnock; and Adam Jobson, the director of organisational development at the Scottish Prison Service. You are very welcome.

We have quite a number of questions to put to you this morning, but before we get to those, I invite Neil Rennick and Teresa Medhurst to make brief opening remarks.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much, indeed. Can I ask an opening question of the director general? Did you say that the Scottish Government is not directly responsible for the process? You are the accountable officer, are you not? Your responsibility is to make sure that there is value for money in the outcomes from the process.