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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Annual Report and Accounts for the Year to 31 March 2024

Meeting date: 24 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay, and what about the other accommodation costs?

Meeting of the Commission

“Quality of public audit in Scotland: Annual report 2023/24”

Meeting date: 24 June 2024

Richard Leonard

It feels a little bit like you might be manipulating the figures, Mr Smith.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

The downgrading of neonatal services at University hospital Wishaw means that people there are being told that they might have to travel to Aberdeen. How do you reconcile that with that goal?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Just to emphasise Graham Simpson’s point, he is asking questions about PFI contracts of varying value, one of which is coming to an end at the end of 2025, which is not that far away. We would expect you to have a bit more detail to furnish us with this morning.

The question that he asked about Wishaw general is pertinent because of the value of the contract, which is £100 million in capital value terms. I recognise that some of the other ones are quite small: one is due to expire at the end of 2029 and is valued at £2.7 million, which is probably small fry in the overall scheme of things. However, we would expect you to have a bit more detail to give us about a larger one such as a significant general hospital that is coming up to the end of its PFI term.

I will follow up another point that Graham Simpson made, which is about savings. Perhaps you can help me, because I do not quite understand why, when we see real-terms increases in the NHS Scotland budget year on year, territorial NHS boards are asked to come up with savings. Will you explain that to me?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

But does a territorial health board not have a budget for staffing?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

So what is the current estimate of costs for those seven treatment centres?

Public Audit Committee

Interests

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 20th meeting in 2024 of the Public Audit Committee.

The first item on our agenda is for Fulton MacGregor to declare any relevant interests to the committee. Fulton joins us online. Over to you, Fulton.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

The principal item on our agenda is further consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s section 23 report “NHS in Scotland 2023”. In the interest of transparency, I refer members to my membership of two trade unions that organise workers who are employed in the national health service.

I welcome our witnesses this morning. We are joined by Caroline Lamb, who is the chief executive of NHS Scotland and the director general of health and social care for the Scottish Government; Richard McCallum, who is the director of health and social care finance, digital and governance for the Scottish Government; and John Burns, who is the chief operating officer of NHS Scotland.

The committee has got quite a number of questions to put to you, but, before we get to those, I invite Caroline Lamb to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. I will ask one final question. Last year, we had a discussion about the national treatment centres, their costs, why they had gone over time—why they were being delayed—and so on. You wrote back, director general, on 22 July last year, explaining that the “original plan” was to open up six centres by 2021, at a cost of £200 million of public money. You also appended a table setting out details of seven centres that were yet to be completed, which had an estimated cost of £827 million. Why was there such a huge increase in the costs that were budgeted for the building of those treatment centres?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

But that would not be impossible, would it? Given that it has gone from £200 million to £827 million, we can easily see how it could continue to rise.