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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
Yes—and you can rest assured that everything will be in miles, not kilometres.
I would like to reflect on the answers that you have given to Graham Simpson. Back on 26 February, when the Auditor General was sat in the seat that you are sitting in this morning, he said:
“The rate of change suggests that we are moving away from delivering the target rather than moving closer to it.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 26 February 2025; c 3.]
Do you also disagree with his conclusion as far as that is concerned?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
But that is the target, is it not? That is what the 20 per cent target is based on.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
Yes—thank you very much. That is helpful. We will bring in the Transport Scotland representatives shortly.
Before I bring in Graham Simpson, I want to ask you about one area in the report. We have had exchanges about this before, cabinet secretary—it is about the peak fares experiment pilot. In case study 1 in the report, the Auditor General and the Accounts Commission specifically make the point that the evaluation conducted by Transport Scotland of the removal of the pilot on peak fares on the railways suggested that no consideration was given to the impact on car use of the removal of that pilot. Why on earth would that be?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you, cabinet secretary. I will look at the context. When the target was set in 2020, a climate emergency had been declared by the then First Minister and we were expecting radical action. I am reminded that the target was set during the lockdown, when there was a massive drop in car use and, of course, public transport use, because of the restrictions that were in place. There was a real sense that we did not want to go back to the old world and that we had a chance to do something different. That is not what has happened, is it?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 12th meeting in 2025 of the Public Audit Committee.
Agenda item 1 is a decision on whether to take agenda items 3, 4, and 5 in private. Are we agreed to take those items in private?
Members indicated agreement.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
But are we moving closer to the target or further away from it?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
Before they come in, maybe you could also answer this question. I do not want to labour a technical point, but is your measurement of car use now different from the car kilometre metric? Maybe Alison Irvine can answer that.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you. That is a helpful clarification.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
I will bring in Gail Macgregor in a second. Before I do that, however, I will take you back to my question, which was: do you accept the recommendations and findings of the report? Your answer was yes. I note that the number 1 key message in this report is nothing to do with global trends and where things are and what other people are doing.
The Scottish Government set a target of a 20 per cent reduction in car use by 2030. The Scottish Government declared a climate emergency. In that context, the very first page of the report by Audit Scotland and the Accounts Commission states that the Scottish Government
“does not have a clear plan”
and that there is a
“lack of leadership”
and
“no costed delivery plan or measurable milestones”.
That is a pretty scathing indictment of the Government, is it not? Do you accept that?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
In the evaluation report, you say that car use was measured and the car kilometre metric was used.