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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 13 May 2025
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Displaying 3102 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

The main item on our agenda is further consideration of “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”, which is a section 22 report. Our witnesses are representing the Scottish Prison Service and the Government. I welcome from the Scottish Prison Service Teresa Medhurst, who is the chief executive; Gerry O’Donnell, who is the finance director; and Allister Purdie, who is the interim operations director.

I also welcome from the Scottish Government Neil Rennick, who is the director general for education and justice, and Catriona Dalrymple, who is the director of justice.

We have a number of questions to put to you this morning. Before we turn to those questions, I will invite Teresa Medhurst and Neil Rennick to make short opening statements, and I begin with the chief executive of the Scottish Prison Service.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

You are the director general for justice in the Scottish Government. Why can you not tell us one way or the other?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Are you taking legal advice as a contingency against the possibility of legal action being taken?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay, but—again—do you not see that as a risk regarding which you need to plan for the possibility of litigation being raised?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

I wonder whether you can clear something else up for me, which was in a statement that we received in evidence that we took when we had GEOAmey before us. When I asked him about exposure to human rights litigation, David Jones said:

“The human rights obligation sits with the state actor, not the private company.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 28 March 2024; c 37.]

Is that correct?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Those were my words, not Mr Farrell’s, on this occasion. He might use them as well, but I used them this time.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you.

Following neatly on from that, the deputy convener has some questions to put to you. Jamie, over to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Can I take that as a yes?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

I will bring in Teresa Medhurst in a minute. Are you taking legal advice on that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

One of the other dimensions is in evidence that we took on 14 March from His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons in Scotland, when we were told—this language was used—that there were “human rights breaches”, and particular reference was made to prisoners not receiving access to medical treatment and hospital appointments, which is a denial of their human rights. Have you taken legal advice on that?