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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and drug services”

Meeting date: 19 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Maggie Page, do you want to comment on that?

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 19 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to this, the 33rd and final meeting of the Public Audit Committee in 2024. Agenda item 1 is for members of the committee to decide whether or not to take agenda items 3 and 4 today in private. Is the committee content to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and drug services”

Meeting date: 19 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much for that opening statement, which covers a lot of the ground that we will get into a bit more detail about in the next hour and a half. I will begin by asking the question that I often pose on these occasions, which is whether you accept all of the recommendations that are contained in the Auditor General and Accounts Commission report.

Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and drug services”

Meeting date: 19 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Do you accept that?

Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and drug services”

Meeting date: 19 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I will pick up on one thing that Maggie Page said, which is that the residential rehab sector is underdeveloped—you painted a picture as though this is year zero. Was there not a much greater level of capacity previously and then a contraction—so what we are seeing now is an expansion on the back of a former period of reduction of a lot of those places?

Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and drug services”

Meeting date: 19 December 2024

Richard Leonard

On that last point, I am bound to observe that the issue is not just about poverty; it is about inequality. As a Parliament, we should perhaps spend a bit of time looking at that issue in a bit more depth.

I draw this morning’s evidence session to a close. I thank each witness for the answers that they have given to our wide-ranging questions. On behalf of the committee, I thank Scott Heald from Public Health Scotland for his evidence; Maggie Page from the drugs strategy unit for answering the questions that we put to her; and Caroline Lamb, the chief executive of NHS Scotland, director general of health and social care and accountable officer, for appearing before us and helping to answer the questions that we posed.

10:53 Meeting continued in private until 11:12.  

Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and drug services”

Meeting date: 19 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay, thank you. The other recommendation in this report for which there is not that clear phrase,

“The Scottish Government accepts this recommendation”,

is in relation to a human rights-based approach to tackling alcohol and drug dependency and relying on the lived and living experience of people who are using services or maybe, in some cases, are not able to access them. Do you accept the recommendation that there needs to be more focus on a rights-based approach?

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay, that is fine. It is just that we were talking about the potential exposure to risk and the importance of us challenging the model that you are describing, and I just wanted to understand that point. I acknowledge that you have given a categorical reply.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I want to pick up a couple of loose ends from the previous two rounds of questions. Of course, our job is to challenge, so, for the record, I note that not all of us believe in the inevitability of downsizing as an approach, and I think that you have described why there are times when you need to expand and reshape the skill sets that you have. Your responses on that have been very useful for us as a commission to understand what is happening with your overall staffing cost.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Again, that is helpful. Stuart Dennis alluded in passing to the estates strategy. In previous years, when looking at the budget, we have discussed your plans to change the distribution of your staff—where they work from and so on. In broad terms, that was about reducing the head count and your footprint in Edinburgh and increasing those in Glasgow. You say in your submission that that has netted savings overall. Therefore, are those savings still on track and how is the estates strategy going?