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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 1 July 2025
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Displaying 3264 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 11 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Agenda item 2 is consideration of the Auditor General’s report “NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”, which was published late last month. I am very pleased to welcome our witnesses: alongside Stephen Boyle, the Auditor General for Scotland, we have, from Audit Scotland, Alison Cumming, executive director of performance audit and best value, and Bernie Milligan, audit manager.

We have questions to put to you, but, before we get to those questions, I invite the Auditor General to make an opening statement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 11 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Can you think of any other Scottish Government departments in which the strategic leadership role and the operational role are similarly combined?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 11 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Okay. I am sure that we will return to the issues during the course of this morning’s evidence session. I now invite Stuart McMillan to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 11 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. I move straight on and invite the deputy convener, Jamie Greene, to put some questions.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 11 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Thanks, Jamie. I invite Colin Beattie to put some questions to you on governance in NHS boards.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 11 June 2025

Richard Leonard

This might be an unfair question, given that you have not attended that session yet. Do you have any sense of what pool those people who aspire to be chairs are drawn from? In other words, are they typically existing members of NHS boards who wish to step up to become chairs of boards or does the net go wider than that?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 11 June 2025

Richard Leonard

It is interesting as to whether the approach should be exclusive in that way or more open. One of the broader questions—I will bring Graham Simpson in shortly—that is raised in your report is the extent to which non-executive board members are properly representative. How many users of NHS services are on those boards? You spoke about a population-based approach to the planning of services and so on. How many older people are members of boards, for example?

It is interesting for us to understand whether the people who are coming through the system—through the Commissioner for Ethical Standards’ net and so on—are truly diverse and representative because, as you say, they have an important role to play in not only scrutinising but challenging the executive team running a health board. Do you get a sense of whether boards fulfil the job that is required of them?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 11 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Good morning, and welcome, everyone, to the 19th meeting in 2025 of the Public Audit Committee. Under agenda item 1, the committee must decide whether to take agenda items 3, 4 and 5 in private. Do we agree to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 11 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much for that introduction.

Key message 2 in the report describes

“weaknesses within the scrutiny and assurance processes at the Scottish Government level.”

As an example, you cite the

“combined role of director general for health and social care and the chief executive of NHS Scotland”,

which are titles that are borne by one person. It would be useful for the committee to understand why you believe that that poses a risk. Perhaps you can point to some examples of that presenting a conflict of interest.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 11 June 2025

Richard Leonard

This is the biggest spending department of the Scottish Government, is it not?