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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 October 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you. Joe FitzPatrick has some questions for the witnesses.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 October 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you very much. I invite Nicole Paterson to make an opening statement on behalf of SEPA.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 October 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you very much, and thanks to the deputy convener for that final series of questions.
We have run out of time, so I will draw this morning’s session to a close. Before I do, I take this opportunity to thank all of you—Anne Aitken, Diarmuid Ó Néill, director general Roy Brannen, Michelagh O’Neill, Nicole Paterson, Alex Flucker, Mark Boyd, Gareth Dixon and Will Burnish—for your contributions. You have all had an opportunity to give us evidence this morning, and we really appreciate that.
There was some scepticism as to whether we needed so many witnesses for one session, but I think that it has proved useful in giving us a fuller version of how you see things and the perspectives of your different organisations and parts of government. It has certainly given us as a committee a lot to consider, so thank you all very much.
I now move the meeting into private session.
11:18 Meeting continued in private until 12:04.Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 October 2025
Richard Leonard
Okay, thanks. I call Mr Dixon, on behalf of COSLA.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 October 2025
Richard Leonard
You have been around for a few years, Mr Brannen.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 October 2025
Richard Leonard
If you do not mind, Mr Brannen, I will ask the COSLA representative to give their perspective, because local government is often at the other end of things. We will get into the funding arrangements over the course of this morning, but there is quite a big onus on both local government and central Government to find the capital expenditure required. It is therefore important to understand where the transfer of risk takes place and who is responsible if things fall behind.
Mr Dixon, what is the local government perspective on the gaps and on whether there is clarity on roles and responsibilities?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 October 2025
Richard Leonard
Following up on the last point, the issue is sometimes whether that matrix has unintended consequences. Certainly, reflecting on the evidence session that we had with the Auditor General and the Accounts Commission, it seems that some study might be useful—it could be done by the Government or by an academic institution—to see whether there is any kind of correlation.
To Mr Burnish’s point, if more housing for working-class communities has been built on flood plains, it might validate the point about where the resilience is being carried out. Conversely, the anecdotal evidence in Audit Scotland and the Accounts Commission’s report suggests that there might be a skew. More organised middle-class communities are certainly sometimes very good at getting decisions to be made.
Mr Ó Néill, do you want to come in on that point?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 October 2025
Richard Leonard
Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 28th meeting in 2025 of the Public Audit Committee. We are joined online by the deputy convener, Jamie Greene.
Agenda item 1 is a decision for members of the committee on whether to take agenda items 3, 4 and 5 in private. Do we agree to take those items in private?
Members indicated agreement.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 October 2025
Richard Leonard
Agenda item 2 is further consideration of the Audit Scotland and Accounts Commission report, “Flooding in communities: Moving towards flood resilience”. I am pleased to welcome to the committee a large array of witnesses from the Scottish Government, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities.
From the Scottish Government, I welcome the director general for net zero, Roy Brannen. He is with us this morning with Diarmuid Ó Néill, who is the interim director of environment and forestry; Anne Aitken, who is the deputy director of environmental quality and resilience; and Michelagh O’Neill, who is the flooding team leader.
We have representatives from SEPA: I am pleased to welcome Nicole Paterson, who is the chief executive, and Alex Flucker, who is the chief operating officer for data, evidence and innovation. You are very welcome, Mr Flucker.
From COSLA, I am pleased to welcome Gareth Dixon, who is a policy manager on local government finance; Mark Boyd, who is the head of finance at North Ayrshire Council, but is here representing COSLA; and Will Burnish, who is a senior engineer at Moray Council and is representing the Scottish Collaboration of Transportation Specialists, or SCOTS.
We have a number of questions to put that are based on the findings contained in the report but, before we get to those questions, I invite the director general to make a short opening statement.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 29 October 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you very much. I will begin by asking what is for us a standard question. Mr Brannen has, to some extent, addressed this already, but I want to ask each of you in turn whether you accept the findings and recommendations contained in this joint Audit Scotland and Accounts Commission report.