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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 3 December 2025
Richard Leonard
We will get into more detail as the morning progresses. I invite Colin Beattie to put questions to you.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 3 December 2025
Richard Leonard
We are the Public Audit Committee and we are not talking here about an ideal world; we are talking about a world where there is some accountability. Even your own document, the June 2021 UHI Perth financial regulations, which I presume was signed off by the board, says that the very first responsibility of the finance director—it is bullet point 1—is
“preparing annual budgets and financial plans”.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 3 December 2025
Richard Leonard
That is very helpful.
My last question on that is: why did it take you six months to resign, if that was such a critical point?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 3 December 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you for that introduction. I will go straight to the deputy convener to kick off the questioning.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 3 December 2025
Richard Leonard
Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 32nd meeting in 2025 of the Public Audit Committee.
Under agenda item 1, does the committee agree to take agenda items 4 to 8 in private?
Members indicated agreement.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 3 December 2025
Richard Leonard
Agenda item 2 is consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s report, “Financial sustainability and taxes”.
I am pleased to welcome to the committee the Auditor General for Scotland, Stephen Boyle. Alongside the Auditor General, we have Richard Robinson, senior manager, and Thomas Charman, senior auditor, both from Audit Scotland. We have quite a number of questions to put to you this morning on the report, Auditor General, but before we get to those, I invite you to make an opening statement.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 26 November 2025
Richard Leonard
I am conscious of the time, so I will move things along by inviting Colin Beattie to continue to pursue the fctheme of financial sustainability.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 26 November 2025
Richard Leonard
I will now invite Graham Simpson to put some questions to you.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 26 November 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you very much indeed.
We have another evidence session up and coming on NHS Grampian, which was also the subject of a section 22 report. Before we turn to that, I will take this opportunity to thank Fiona Mitchell-Knight, the Auditor General and Leigh Johnston for the evidence that you have given us on the position of NHS Ayrshire and Arran.
I suppose that, for context, we need to understand the point that you made towards the end, which is that not all the 14 territorial health boards have required brokerage. The question for us as the Public Audit Committee is why some boards have required it and others have not. Maybe there are fundamental issues about the funding formula—who knows? I think that there are some wider points that we need to get a better understanding of.
Thank you very much indeed for what has been a very useful session for us. I will now suspend the meeting while we change witnesses.
10:49 Meeting suspended.Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 26 November 2025
Richard Leonard
I have a question before we leave this area. Auditor General, you have mentioned the KPMG report a couple of times. One of the key messages that the auditor attached to the report is that staffing levels are out of kilter with the number of beds in NHS Grampian. The report goes on to cite different grades. It says, for example, that there has been a 16.4 per cent increase of nursing whole-time-equivalent staff in the past three years, a 17.8 per cent increase of medical and dental WTEs, an 18.2 per cent increase among the administrative staff, and an increase of over 33 per cent when we get to other therapeutic staff. KPMG’s argument is that there are far too many people employed by NHS Grampian and that its cost base is out of line; it says that that is a deficit driver that it would not expect and so on. However, if the narrative is that these are positions that were previously outsourced to agencies at great expense and have now been brought in-house, that might be a good thing. Do you have a view on that?