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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3918 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Scottish Canals”

Meeting date: 24 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Catherine Topley, can I take you back to your opening statement? It was not entirely clear to me whether you accept the analysis and recommendations that the Auditor General for Scotland has made. Do you accept those recommendations?

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 24 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning and welcome, everyone, to the 10th meeting in 2022 of the Public Audit Committee.

Before we begin, I remind members, witnesses and staff present that the Parliament’s social distancing rules apply. If you are entering, walking around or leaving the room, I ask that you wear a face covering, please. You do not have to do that when you are seated or when giving evidence.

Item 1 is a decision on whether to take agenda items 3 and 4 in private. Do we agree to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Scottish Canals”

Meeting date: 24 March 2022

Richard Leonard

You said that you accept the recommendations and analysis in the Auditor General’s report. That includes paragraph 5, which says:

“Scottish Canals will now undertake a new valuation process of the canal infrastructure estate in its entirety during 2022.”

You are committed to doing that, I presume. Audit Scotland goes on to explain why that is important. It is not just a technical exercise of ticking a box to comply with ONS, Her Majesty’s Treasury or Scottish Government requirements; it is about supporting

“preparation of Scottish Canals’ medium-term financial strategy”,

so it is an important and central part of how you plan for the future. You have accepted the deadline. What happens if you do not meet it?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Scottish Canals”

Meeting date: 24 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Before we leave that point, Catherine Topley was asked by Colin Beattie about the support that Scottish Canals had had from Transport Scotland, but I would like to ask Hugh Gillies about the degree to which he feels any responsibility for the situation.

The Audit Scotland report is fairly strong. Paragraph 4 says that there were fundamental problems with the qualifications of the person who carried out the valuation of assets. Paragraph 18 talks about the classification of revenue spend as capital spend. Those sound like technical matters, but they are fairly fundamental failings in the approach to the accounts—to such an extent that Audit Scotland issued that rare thing: a disclaimer.

Recently, we heard from the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, which had a disclaimer because of a cyberattack, in which virtually all of its data was wiped out. Scottish Canals has had a disclaimer. Hugh Gillies, how do you reflect on the situation that has occurred? What lessons are you learning as a result?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Scottish Canals”

Meeting date: 24 March 2022

Richard Leonard

That is helpful, but I do not read the report as simply being about a narrow technical issue that has led to a snag. For example, one of the critiques in the report is that the people who were appointed to carry out the asset valuation did not appear to be qualified to do so. How on earth could that happen?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Scottish Canals”

Meeting date: 24 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Item 2 is consideration of a section 22 report on Scottish canals that was published by the Auditor General earlier this year. I welcome our witnesses. From Scottish Canals, we have Catherine Topley, who is the chief executive; Andrew Thin, who is the chair of the board; and Sarah Jane Hannah, who is the director of finance and business services. We also have a team from Transport Scotland, which is led by Hugh Gillies, who is the interim chief executive. We are also joined by Fran Pacitti, who is the director of aviation, maritime, freight and—this fits in with the purpose of this morning’s item—canals; and Lee Shedden, who is the financial controller.

I invite Catherine Topley to make a short opening statement, which will be followed by a series of questions from committee members.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Scottish Canals”

Meeting date: 24 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Willie Coffey has a question in the same area.

09:30  

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Scottish Canals”

Meeting date: 24 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Okay. I will move things on by inviting Sharon Dowey to ask some questions.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Scottish Canals”

Meeting date: 24 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much, indeed, for that comprehensive opening statement, which is useful. I am sure that it will provoke lots of questions.

Craig Hoy will put the opening question to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Scottish Canals”

Meeting date: 24 March 2022

Richard Leonard

That draws to an end the questions that we have for you. We will reflect on the evidence that you have given and we may pursue some lines of inquiry with you after the meeting. Thank you for coming and being present in the committee room. It was good to have people sat in front of us, so that we could properly inquire into your response to the very serious report that Audit Scotland published. I thank Catherine Topley for leading on the evidence; it is appreciated. I also thank Andrew Thin, Sarah Jane Hannah and the team from Transport Scotland—Hugh Gillies, Fran Pacitti and Lee Shedden—for their evidence.

10:06 Meeting continued in private until 11:25.