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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 1 December 2025
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Displaying 3519 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

We are in our final few minutes. If other members want to come back in for another go, they are welcome to do so.

Going back to the overall outcomes and where we began, it struck me that, although we have a national strategy that has been in place since 2016 and an act of Parliament that provides for a new institutional structure to deliver community justice, the conclusion of the Audit Scotland report was that little progress appears to have been made in the intervening period.

I understand the points that Mr Griffin made at the beginning about the total volumes and how that has changed. However, as the Public Audit Committee, one of our maxims is follow the money. The Audit Scotland report states:

“Community justice funding makes up less than five per cent of overall justice funding, and there has been little change in recent years.”

If we are following the money and this is a priority and everybody wants to see a change in the balance between custodial and non-custodial, why is that so static?

Public Audit Committee

“Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

I want to move on. I will bring in other committee members shortly, but one thing that stood out in the briefing, which other members will address, is the quite significant geographical variations in community sentencing—for example, by local authority areas. What is your understanding of the reasons for such wide and marked variations, depending on where someone is in Scotland?

Public Audit Committee

“Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

Craig Hoy has questions to probe into that area a bit more.

Public Audit Committee

“Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

It is about outcomes, performance and improvement.

Public Audit Committee

“Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

That needs to be measured, and it needs to be measured in a meaningful way.

Earlier, we mentioned the governance and accountability lines, particularly since the passing of the Community Justice (Scotland) Act 2016. Colin Beattie has a series of questions about that.

Public Audit Committee

“Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

I was not suggesting a target for the prison population; I was referring to the whole basis of the conversation this morning, which is about the proportions and how we get a shift from custodial to community-based justice options. That is not about a cap on the prison population; it is about how we shift from disposals that are custody based to disposals that are not custody based. My question is: are you set any targets for that shift in balance from one to the other?

Public Audit Committee

“Covid-19 vaccination programme”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

The third item on our agenda is evidence from Audit Scotland on its briefing paper, “Covid-19 vaccination programme”, which was produced recently. Our witnesses will give evidence on the research and audit that has been carried out by Audit Scotland. I welcome Stephen Boyle, the Auditor General for Scotland, and Leigh Johnston, who is a senior manager at Audit Scotland. Joining us remotely is Eva Thomas-Tudo, who is a senior auditor for performance audit and best value at Audit Scotland.

If Eva Thomas-Tudo wants to come in, she should put an R in the chat function. If the witnesses in the room want to come in, they should simply indicate to me or the clerks, and we will do our best to bring them in.

I ask Stephen Boyle to give a brief opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

“Covid-19 vaccination programme”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

It does include that cost. That is good.

You mentioned recent announcements. An additional £482 million was announced, to include funding for personal protective equipment, test and protect and the delivery of Covid-19 vaccinations. Does the Auditor General or any member of the team have a sense of how that will fit the expected likely demand?

Public Audit Committee

“Covid-19 vaccination programme”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

One area that is highlighted in the report is digital access and the use of digital tools. Craig Hoy has a number of questions on what is an evolving picture, and I think that Willie Coffey might want to ask briefly about it, too.

Public Audit Committee

“Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

The second item on our agenda, and the main purpose of the first half of our meeting, is to discuss the Audit Scotland briefing, “Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”. We have with us three witnesses from the Scottish Government. I am delighted to welcome to the committee Joe Griffin, who is the director general of education and justice; Neil Rennick, who is the director of justice; and Catriona Dalrymple, who is the deputy director of community justice and parole.

We have a number of questions to ask, but perhaps Mr Griffin would like to begin by making an opening statement.