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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3918 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Richard Leonard

I will take you back to some evidence that we heard from the Auditor General about correspondence on 8 and 9 October 2015 that took place between your predecessor as chief executive of Transport Scotland and Government ministers. An email from Transport Scotland reflected Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd’s concerns about the award of the contract to Ferguson Marine Engineering Ltd. The board of CMAL went so far as to say:

“The Board feel it is their absolute duty to point out the risk to their shareholder and in that respect would expect approval, should SG wish this project to proceed, and to receive direction to that effect”.

The next day, a reply was submitted to Erik Østergaard from the director of aviation, maritime, freight and canals—your predecessor, Fran Pacitti. Transport Scotland used the word “authorised” in relation to CMAL being able

“to enter into the Contracts and any associated documentation.”

At the bottom of that letter, it says:

“I confirm that the Scottish Ministers have considered and approved the contents of this letter.”

One of the issues that are at stake is whether written authority from ministers was sought and secured but not recorded or whether the correspondence does not constitute that at all. Mr Brannen, will you address that point?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Richard Leonard

Okay, but in light of the view of CMAL, which also reports directly to the ministerial team, why do you not think that it was asking for written authority?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Richard Leonard

My final question, Roy Brannen, is to ask whether it was in your gift to advise ministers to terminate the contract. If it was, did it cross your mind to do that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Richard Leonard

You kind of recused Transport Scotland from that, but, as the accountable officer, you gave advice at the end of April 2017—it is among the 200-odd documents that are now in the public domain—in which you said that, if flexibility on the surety bond were to be introduced, you would require written authority for that.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Richard Leonard

On that note—which is where we might pick things up again in the future—I thank Mr Brannen for his time and the evidence that he has given. I also thank all the members of the team who joined him, including Mo Rooney, who contributed towards the end of the session. As I said, there are whole areas of the report that we think it is important to interrogate. That is one of the reasons why Mr Cook was not called this morning. I am sure that we will get back in touch, Mr Brannen, to see whether we can arrange a follow-up session, because lots of important issues have been raised this morning but we did not quite get to some of the ground that we need to cover. Once again, I thank the witnesses for their time.

I close the public part of this morning’s meeting.

10:40 Meeting continued in private until 11:37.  

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Richard Leonard

Who would ministerial approval be sought from?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Richard Leonard

For the avoidance of doubt, Fran Pacitti said that that did not happen in the case of vessels 801 and 802.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Richard Leonard

However, at that stage, there was a reprofiling, as you called it, or an acceleration, as many others would call it, of the payments to FMEL.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Richard Leonard

Audit Scotland’s report notes that there were 15 intervals of payment rather than the typical five. For the record, can you tell us the reasons for that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Richard Leonard

One of the things that I have drawn from today’s session is that a lot of responsibility and accountability seems to have been placed at the level of the builder and the buyer, but the whole apparatus of accountability in the civil service does not seem to have been applied.