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All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 9 June 2022
Richard Leonard
Good morning, and welcome to the 17th meeting in 2022 of the Public Audit Committee. Willie Coffey, one of the members of the committee, is not able to join us in the committee room, but I am pleased to say—and see—that he is joining us via videolink. Willie knows that he just needs to indicate in the chat function if he wants to come in.
Item 1 is consideration of a decision to take in private agenda items 3 and 4. Does the committee agree to take those items in private?
Members indicated agreement.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 9 June 2022
Richard Leonard
When did you find the thing that Mr Brannen referred to as “the bit of paper”?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 9 June 2022
Richard Leonard
I think that that was the same day that the Conservative party called a debate on ferries in the Parliament. Is that correct?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 9 June 2022
Richard Leonard
And the minister was able to wave that bit of paper in Parliament in the afternoon of 11 May.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 9 June 2022
Richard Leonard
Okay. In his evidence, Roy Brannen made clear that he felt that the gap had been filled, but Audit Scotland’s position is that it was not filled—and that is not just a matter of record keeping or a bit of paper; it is about the whole approach and it is about transparency.
Let me pick up on another issue. Fran Pacitti, the documents that you found on 11 May tell us a little about who was involved in the decision-making process. Mr Brannen told us on 26 May that it was
“entirely a decision for the transport minister.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 26 May 2022; c 6.]
However, we can see from the correspondence of 8 and 9 October that you unearthed that the Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities, Keith Brown, was copied into emails. The last word in that series of emails belongs to the Deputy First Minister, who was clearly an active player in the decision; a report of his comments was in an email that was sent at a quarter past 5 on 9 October. How do you reconcile that with the comment that the decision was entirely for the transport minister? Perhaps Hugh Gillies will answer that.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 9 June 2022
Richard Leonard
Okay, but other people in ministerial positions were copied into the emails. They were part of the email conversation. What do you say to that?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 9 June 2022
Richard Leonard
But what do you say, Mr Gillies?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 9 June 2022
Richard Leonard
Nobody knows who Alexander Anderson was, even though he is on those email trails that you unearthed on 11 May.
My understanding is that Alexander Anderson was a senior special adviser to the First Minister of Scotland, and he was copied in on those emails. Again, I ask the question: if you are saying that the decision was entirely for the transport minister, why was the Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities copied in, why was the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and the Economy copied in, and why was a senior special adviser to the First Minister of Scotland copied in?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 9 June 2022
Richard Leonard
The Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee’s report shows that the first of the summary of conclusions and recommendations is:
“Transport Scotland and CMAL applied inadequate due diligence in scrutinising and signing off the procurement process”.
Do you accept that?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 9 June 2022
Richard Leonard
Again, that seems to be rather at odds with the conclusion that was drawn by Audit Scotland that Transport Scotland had some oversight responsibility for the procurement process. Last time, we heard the mantra from Mr Brannen that it was all about buyer and builder, but this is public money. As an accountable officer, do you not have some accountability for how that money is spent?
09:30