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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3918 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning, and welcome to the 17th meeting in 2022 of the Public Audit Committee. Willie Coffey, one of the members of the committee, is not able to join us in the committee room, but I am pleased to say—and see—that he is joining us via videolink. Willie knows that he just needs to indicate in the chat function if he wants to come in.

Item 1 is consideration of a decision to take in private agenda items 3 and 4. Does the committee agree to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

When did you find the thing that Mr Brannen referred to as “the bit of paper”?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I think that that was the same day that the Conservative party called a debate on ferries in the Parliament. Is that correct?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

And the minister was able to wave that bit of paper in Parliament in the afternoon of 11 May.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Okay. In his evidence, Roy Brannen made clear that he felt that the gap had been filled, but Audit Scotland’s position is that it was not filled—and that is not just a matter of record keeping or a bit of paper; it is about the whole approach and it is about transparency.

Let me pick up on another issue. Fran Pacitti, the documents that you found on 11 May tell us a little about who was involved in the decision-making process. Mr Brannen told us on 26 May that it was

“entirely a decision for the transport minister.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 26 May 2022; c 6.]

However, we can see from the correspondence of 8 and 9 October that you unearthed that the Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities, Keith Brown, was copied into emails. The last word in that series of emails belongs to the Deputy First Minister, who was clearly an active player in the decision; a report of his comments was in an email that was sent at a quarter past 5 on 9 October. How do you reconcile that with the comment that the decision was entirely for the transport minister? Perhaps Hugh Gillies will answer that.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Okay, but other people in ministerial positions were copied into the emails. They were part of the email conversation. What do you say to that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

But what do you say, Mr Gillies?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Nobody knows who Alexander Anderson was, even though he is on those email trails that you unearthed on 11 May.

My understanding is that Alexander Anderson was a senior special adviser to the First Minister of Scotland, and he was copied in on those emails. Again, I ask the question: if you are saying that the decision was entirely for the transport minister, why was the Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities copied in, why was the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and the Economy copied in, and why was a senior special adviser to the First Minister of Scotland copied in?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

The Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee’s report shows that the first of the summary of conclusions and recommendations is:

“Transport Scotland and CMAL applied inadequate due diligence in scrutinising and signing off the procurement process”.

Do you accept that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Again, that seems to be rather at odds with the conclusion that was drawn by Audit Scotland that Transport Scotland had some oversight responsibility for the procurement process. Last time, we heard the mantra from Mr Brannen that it was all about buyer and builder, but this is public money. As an accountable officer, do you not have some accountability for how that money is spent?

09:30