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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 27 August 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report

Meeting date: 30 September 2021

Richard Leonard

Our second agenda item is to look at the “Improving outcomes for young people through school education” report, which was produced earlier this year. This is an opportunity for us to speak to the accountable officer in the Scottish Government, Joe Griffin, whom I welcome this morning. I think that this is your first appearance before the committee.

Public Audit Committee

“Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”

Meeting date: 30 September 2021

Richard Leonard

I reconvene the meeting.

We have an important item on our agenda about the Audit Scotland report entitled “Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”. However, before we get to that, I want to refer to the briefing on the vaccination programme that has been published today, I think. It struck me that that is an important piece of work and pretty much a good-news story that reflects on the success of the vaccination programme. Exhibit 2 is a particularly striking demonstration of the extent to which the vaccination programme has reduced hospitalisations, case numbers and people dying from Covid-19.

It is also clear from the briefing that there are still some obstacles that are built on inequalities, and that the level of vaccine hesitancy in some groups—by age and ethnicity, for example—is greater than it is in others. I think that there will need to be further work that looks into the underlying reasons for that. I do not know whether Audit Scotland or others will carry out that work, but that is clearly a challenge that we as a society face. I am sure that we as a committee will consider the briefing in detail in the fullness of time.

Do you want to make any comments on the briefing, Auditor General?

Public Audit Committee

“Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”

Meeting date: 30 September 2021

Richard Leonard

Finally, if the reconviction rate is demonstrably so much better for community sentences as opposed to custodial sentences, the cost is considerably different and it is clear that the impact on the prison population and the overcrowding of prisons must be a consideration, why has so little progress been made?

Public Audit Committee

“Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”

Meeting date: 30 September 2021

Richard Leonard

Thank you. We may want to probe a little bit more into that.

Public Audit Committee

“Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”

Meeting date: 30 September 2021

Richard Leonard

Thank you. Craig Hoy will ask some questions on a related theme.

Public Audit Committee

“Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”

Meeting date: 30 September 2021

Richard Leonard

On that point, I want to end our discussion by reflecting on what you are saying, which is that it is quite clear that the roles and lines of accountability are perhaps not as clear as they ought to be, and that that might be one of the factors in the object of the Government not being met as comprehensively as it would hope and many people would expect.

I want to finish by asking a little bit more about funding. We know that, in the funds for the recover, renew and transform programme, an additional £11.8 million—it is mentioned the report—has been made available for criminal justice social work services. That sounds quite a small amount of money to me. Do you think that it is sufficient to make any difference at all?

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 30 September 2021

Richard Leonard

I welcome everybody to the fifth meeting in session 6 of the Public Audit Committee. I remind members and guests that the social distancing rules of Parliament must be adhered to. If you are moving around the committee room, or if you are entering or leaving it, please wear a face covering.

The first agenda item is to decide whether to take items 4 and 5 in private. Do we agree to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report

Meeting date: 30 September 2021

Richard Leonard

I am sure that we shall be gentle in our approach to you, in light of that. Joining us remotely are Graeme Logan, who is the director of learning at the Scottish Government, and Gayle Gorman, who is the chief inspector of education at Education Scotland. Willie Coffey, a member of the committee, is also joining us via videolink.

I remind those who are joining us remotely that, because this is a hybrid meeting, it would be helpful if you could enter an R in the chat box function if you want to come in on any of the points. Those who are in the room can simply indicate that to me or to the clerks, and we will take your questions or answers.

I want to afford Joe Griffin the opportunity of making an opening statement before we get into the question session.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report

Meeting date: 30 September 2021

Richard Leonard

Thank you for that opening statement. We will now turn to questions.

In the previous session of Parliament, a recurring theme and a cause for concern was incomplete and poor-quality data. When we look at the joint Audit Scotland-Accounts Commission report into outcomes for young people in school education, the issue seems to crop up again. The sets of data that are available, which measure outcomes, appear to be incomplete. The expression used by the Auditor General is that

“there is a lack of robust data”.—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 9 September 2021; c 4.]

Our first question is this: what are you doing to address that? Are you taking serious action to address it?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report

Meeting date: 30 September 2021

Richard Leonard

Thank you. We may return to some of those themes before the session finishes, but my final question for now is simply to ask whether you accept all the recommendations in the report.