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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 28 August 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Covid-19 vaccination programme”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

I am not sure that we want to dive into a full-scale debate on vaccination passports at the Public Audit Committee.

Willie Coffey is next. Willie—you have questions on the digital stuff and on population reach.

Public Audit Committee

“Covid-19 vaccination programme”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

Colin Beattie has questions.

Public Audit Committee

“Covid-19 vaccination programme”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

We will look forward to that.

Will you confirm whether the costings in the briefing cover the booster vaccination programme that has already started for some categories of the population? Do you have any sense of the projected costs for vaccination programmes in future years? Has your work on this year’s vaccination programme given you any sense of where things are with the booster programme and what any possible future vaccination programme might look like or what it might cost?

Public Audit Committee

“Covid-19 vaccination programme”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

That is helpful. Are you saying that the figure does not include the cost of the booster programme? Have I picked that up correctly?

Public Audit Committee

“Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

Thank you. Mr Beattie will ask questions about the governance structure later on.

I turn to sentencing, on which I invite Willie Coffey to ask his questions. An interesting report has been published today by the Scottish Sentencing Council that goes to the heart of some of the committee’s questions and areas of concern.

Public Audit Committee

“Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

Two things arise from that. Would it be possible to get that information or data into the public domain? If the point that you are making is that 5 per cent does not capture the full extent of the additional resources that are now going into community justice, it would serve your argument and the case for your department’s performance to demonstrate that more resources are going into that. As I said, quite an important maxim is follow the money.

The other question that arises for me is whether you have any targets. We asked that question in the session with Audit Scotland on the briefing. I mentioned the proportion of non-custodial sentences going from 59 per cent to 56 per cent to 59 per cent. Do you work towards any formal or informal or internally or externally set targets for that number?

Public Audit Committee

“Covid-19 vaccination programme”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. The briefing is wide ranging, and we have a wide range of questions to ask.

I will get us under way with a couple of questions. The briefing is broadly positive, as you said, but there are challenges that lie not behind us but ahead of us. We know that there will be increasing pressures on the national health service, which we normally see during the winter, and that there is a considerable backlog of treatment. There is also the continuing pressure of delivering the vaccination programme. Are there adequate structures, leadership and governance in place to withstand those pressures and to meet those challenges?

Public Audit Committee

“Covid-19 vaccination programme”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

Thank you. Of course, we will come back—it might even be next week—to the PPE report that you produced, which is on part of this terrain as well.

As I said, we have a wide range of questions. I begin by asking Sharon Dowey to come in on an important area for us.

Public Audit Committee

“Covid-19 vaccination programme”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

I am reminded just how important these questions are by the evidence in your briefing paper. Exhibit 2 shows us in very clear terms the difference in outcomes for those who are unvaccinated and those who have received the double dose. For the record, the number of unvaccinated cases recorded is almost two and a half times the number of fully vaccinated cases, and the number of hospitalisations is three times more for the unvaccinated than it is for the fully vaccinated. Sadly, the mortality rate for people who have not been vaccinated is five times higher than the rate among those who have been fully vaccinated. Matters of inequality, ethnicity and deprivation feed into those outcomes. Do you want to comment on that?

Public Audit Committee

“Community justice: Sustainable alternatives to custody”

Meeting date: 28 October 2021

Richard Leonard

Thank you, Mr Griffin. Feel free to bring in the other witnesses alongside you, if you think that they could helpfully illuminate some of those points further.

You spoke of totals. I am not in a position to dispute the figures that you presented to us, which we will look at in a bit more detail, but there is an emphasis in the Audit Scotland briefing on the proportions. It is a stated aim of public policy to change the balance between custodial and non-custodial sentences. However, over the past three years, the proportion of non-custodial sentences went from 59 per cent to 56 per cent, then back up to 59 per cent. That does not show a clear line of progress to the public or members of this committee; rather, it looks as though there has been one step forward, one step back, then one step forward again. Will you reflect on the proportions as well as the totals?