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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 30 November 2025
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Displaying 3519 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 3 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you—that is much appreciated.

Colin Beattie has a series of questions on leadership and culture and some of the other big issues that are raised in the briefing.

Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 3 March 2022

Richard Leonard

I see that Antony Clark wants to come in. Perhaps he will be able to answer Colin Beattie’s question.

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 3 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the seventh meeting in 2022 of the Public Audit Committee. I remind members, witnesses and staff that social distancing rules are still in place. Please respect those and wear a face covering when moving around the room or entering or exiting the room. However, face coverings can be removed when you are seated at the table.

Under agenda item 1, the committee will decide whether to take agenda items 3 and 4 in private. Does the committee agree to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 3 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Thanks. Antony Clark wants to come in on that point, too.

Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 3 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Yes, that is very useful. We have more questions about commissioning. There is a debate about whether the current commissioning model is the best one. It seems to be quite top down, and I am not sure that the voice of users is heard sufficiently loudly in it. However, that will be part of the debate that we will have in Parliament about the creation of a national care service. It will also address some of the more urgent points on which you have asked us to push.

The briefing also mentions the Social Care (Self-directed Support) (Scotland) Act 2013, which provided for self-directed support. The previous Auditor General, along with the Accounts Commission, produced a report in 2017 that concluded that the vision of self-directed support had not been fully implemented. How much further on are we? How would you describe the status of implementation of self-directed support?

Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 3 March 2022

Richard Leonard

You mentioned commissioning, the workforce and reward, and we have a series of questions on those issues, which we will come to.

First, a striking thing about the briefing is that you say how important it is that service users’ perspectives and voices are seen and heard. There is a suggestion that, at the moment, those are not seen or heard as much as they might be. Are you aware of work being carried out by the Scottish Government that seeks to bring in the views of service users, their families and people who receive care, so that, in turn, they can inform the strategic planning of social care in Scotland?

Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 3 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you, Antony. That was helpful.

Another piece of legislation that Parliament passed on which you also reflect in the briefing is the Carers (Scotland) Act 2016, which provides for rights for unpaid carers. In your briefing, you reflect on a survey—from 2019, admittedly—that was carried out by the Coalition of Carers in Scotland. We should, of course, bear it in mind that there are 700,000 unpaid carers, so we are talking about a huge part of the population. The survey found that of those 700,000 people—or, I presume, a sample of them—

“only 16 per cent ... knew of the Act and what rights it provides; 33 per cent had heard of it but did not know what it was about; and 51 per cent had never heard of”

the act or the rights that it bestowed. Does not that highlight an issue that clearly needs to be addressed? What, as far as you are aware, is the Government doing to address the fact that, although there is an act of Parliament that gives unpaid carers rights, many of them are ignorant of those rights?

Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 3 March 2022

Richard Leonard

We have questions covering the range of issues that are raised in the briefing, which is extensive and raises matters of concern. Not least of those is the fact that about £5.2 billion of public expenditure is currently invested in social care, yet we have the issues of concern that the report highlights and draws us towards. You say that we have increasing demand and demographic changes, and that there is still a lot of unmet need.

I want to begin by looking at the sustainability of the social care system. You make it clear in the briefing that, although the Parliament in this session will legislate for the creation of a national care service, there is a degree of urgency around the action that is needed to tackle some of the unmet needs and some of the challenges that social care providers and the social care workforce face. In fact, at one point, your briefing says that the system is “near-crisis”. Is the Scottish Government putting sufficient resources into social care?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 24 February 2022

Richard Leonard

I think that it would be helpful. I know that other processes are under way, but there is an important aspect to the issue for the Public Audit Committee, which is about the decision-making process. The Lord Advocate admitted liability in court, which therefore had financial consequences. If you could get back to us on that, that would be very helpful.

I will move on. Colin Beattie has a series of questions.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of Scottish Canals”

Meeting date: 24 February 2022

Richard Leonard

Agenda item 3 is a review of the section 22 report arising from the 2020-21 audit of Scottish Canals. I welcome our witnesses for this part of the meeting. The Auditor General for Scotland, Stephen Boyle, is joining us in the committee room. Graeme Greenhill, who is senior manager in performance audit and best value at Audit Scotland, and Joanne Brown, who is a partner with Grant Thornton UK LLP, are online. I think that Grant Thornton UK LLP carried out the audit on the ground with Scottish Canals.

I invite the Auditor General to give an opening statement.